Printing neutral greys / Lightroom Classic

[charlesphoto99]

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@hansvons is 100% correct up top.

I print on an ipf6400, and I can't do much better than the Canon Auto Monochrome setting, though I have it tweaked to add just a few points of warmth, etc. You match what you do on the calibrated monitor to what the print looks like from the calibrated printer. The two may be slightly different, esp in density.

I recently had to make files for duotones for a book, all archival scans from negs. I had to relearn what I did to make a juicy inkjet print to what it should look like before going to press. We didn't do a full proof of the book (really expensive) but did do a couple of test sheets and that helped myself and the duotone file maker what to do. And then on press we could adjust signature  sheets slightly for density. Everything turned out perfect. My point being, once you get it dialed in, don't start messing about too much. ImagePrint is fantastic, but $$, though the Epson and Canon ABW's are pretty close and free, though currently stuck at PS 2021. I calibrate to 5600K on my monitor, but it's also pretty old, my overheads terrible, but a 20X24 Gretag Viewer. There's no true exacting science to this, that's why there's still some art left in it. 

[Jeff S]

On 1/27/2024 at 6:56 PM, jaapv said:

 It is advisable to read “ Real World Color Management “ by Fraser et al. despite this being an older publication. Available in Kindle. 

Posts 11,13

Jeff

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[IchBinKeinRoboter]

Thanks everybody - there are a lot of very useful insights here for me:

1. While the purpose of a monitor profile is to ensure that what I see is an accurate representation of the image file, the purpose of a print profile is different.  The purpose of a print profile is to (approximately) show me what the print output will look like.
2. B/W printing is a very demanding case, since any color shifts are just so much more noticeable than in color prints.  There are software packages (and some hardware) that can help increase the accuracy of these representations.  My screen is profiled, and I am using printer profiles for the combination of printer-ink-paper.  I also edit and  view prints in 6500K light.
3. The book recommendation looks very interesting -- I'm going to find a copy on Abebooks.
4. There appears to be a separate issue how LrC deals with colors.  This is consistent across LrC on my Mac and LR on iPad.  As illustrated by post #12, an input file with pure red goes through a slight green/blue shift when it is imported into Lightroom (and analogous for files in the other primary colors).  This happens before any LR edits are made.

 

My next steps:

1. I am going to get hold of a copy of Real World Color Management
2. I will try ABW (Epson printer) for printing B/W
3. I am asking Adobe for insights what is causing item 4 (above).

And yes, Stuart, I am intentionally taking a fairly "robotic" approach: I've found that to really understand an issue, reproducibility and systematic exploration of edge cases is key,  That aside, this forum was particularly stubborn when I tried to sign up and pick a user name that wasn't already taken, and there are only so many CAPTCHAs I can go through to confirm that I'm not a bot...

Thanks once again everybody.

I'll be back

Michael

[IchBinKeinRoboter]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb IchBinKeinRoboter:

Thanks everybody - there are a lot of very useful insights here for me:

1. While the purpose of a monitor profile is to ensure that what I see is an accurate representation of the image file, the purpose of a print profile is different.  The purpose of a print profile is to (approximately) show me what the print output will look like.
2. B/W printing is a very demanding case, since any color shifts are just so much more noticeable than in color prints.  There are software packages (and some hardware) that can help increase the accuracy of these representations.  My screen is profiled, and I am using printer profiles for the combination of printer-ink-paper.  I also edit and  view prints in 6500K light.
3. The book recommendation looks very interesting -- I'm going to find a copy on Abebooks.
4. There appears to be a separate issue how LrC deals with colors.  This is consistent across LrC on my Mac and LR on iPad.  As illustrated by post #12, an input file with pure red goes through a slight green/blue shift when it is imported into Lightroom (and analogous for files in the other primary colors).  This happens before any LR edits are made.

 

My next steps:

1. I am going to get hold of a copy of Real World Color Management
2. I will try ABW (Epson printer) for printing B/W
3. I am asking Adobe for insights what is causing item 4 (above).

And yes, Stuart, I am intentionally taking a fairly "robotic" approach: I've found that to really understand an issue, reproducibility and systematic exploration of edge cases is key,  That aside, this forum was particularly stubborn when I tried to sign up and pick a user name that wasn't already taken, and there are only so many CAPTCHAs I can go through to confirm that I'm not a bot...

Thanks once again everybody.

I'll be back

Michael

[Insights, continued]:

5. Printing, in general, is a case of understanding and working with the color characteristics of each paper.  This is particularly important for B/W prints.

[Jeff S]

40 minutes ago, IchBinKeinRoboter said:

[Insights, continued]:

5. Printing, in general, is a case of understanding and working with the color characteristics of each paper.  This is particularly important for B/W prints.

And a half dozen other potentially significant characteristics, just as in darkroom days.

Jeff

 

[hansvons]

9 hours ago, IchBinKeinRoboter said:

B/W printing is a very demanding case, since any color shifts are just so much more noticeable than in color prints.  There are software packages (and some hardware) that can help increase the accuracy of these representations.  My screen is profiled, and I am using printer profiles for the combination of printer-ink-paper.  I also edit and  view prints in 6500K light.

There shouldn't be colour shifts in B&W from the outset. The colour cast (if any) should only come from the paper and cannot corrected meaningfully in post. Choosing the right paper is a vital part of the craft. How the paper corresponds with the image's mood and content, haptics, and texture is essential.

It's good to have the screen adequately calibrated. But it will never match the print perfectly as they are completely different media (one is self-illuminated, the other must be lighted and works reflective) and show different densities/gammas that cannot be brought perfectly into sync. It is better to know your screen and your prints and how they correspond and correct for that accordingly. That takes some time, sheets and ink.  Printing works with 5000K and not 6500 like filmmaking because the paper's white can be better evaluated at 5000K than with 6500K, which the eye always regards as cool, regardless of how long we try to adapt, and subtle differences will be lost. By the way, dimming your screen's brightness to your viewing environment is essential.

I just printed a few B&W prints on an old and dying 4900. But its blacks are as good as day one. The density of paper and screen differs; that also counts for the "punch", and you would correct that in LR or C1 while keeping the tonal delicateness. In the end, contrast and sharpness on your screen may look oversexed. But the results will be more nuanced and subtle than one might expect from looking at the screen. 

The only measure is your taste. And that makes printing so challenging. As David Hockney says, there's an awful lot of looking to do. 

[elmars]

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vor 7 Stunden schrieb hansvons:

There shouldn't be colour shifts in B&W from the outset. The colour cast (if any) should only come from the paper and cannot corrected meaningfully in post. Choosing the right paper is a vital part of the craft. How the paper corresponds with the image's mood and content, haptics, and texture is essential.

It's good to have the screen adequately calibrated. But it will never match the print perfectly as they are completely different media (one is self-illuminated, the other must be lighted and works reflective) and show different densities/gammas that cannot be brought perfectly into sync. It is better to know your screen and your prints and how they correspond and correct for that accordingly. That takes some time, sheets and ink.  Printing works with 5000K and not 6500 like filmmaking because the paper's white can be better evaluated at 5000K than with 6500K, which the eye always regards as cool, regardless of how long we try to adapt, and subtle differences will be lost. By the way, dimming your screen's brightness to your viewing environment is essential.

I just printed a few B&W prints on an old and dying 4900. But its blacks are as good as day one. The density of paper and screen differs; that also counts for the "punch", and you would correct that in LR or C1 while keeping the tonal delicateness. In the end, contrast and sharpness on your screen may look oversexed. But the results will be more nuanced and subtle than one might expect from looking at the screen. 

The only measure is your taste. And that makes printing so challenging. As David Hockney says, there's an awful lot of looking to do. 

Exactly my experience!

[IchBinKeinRoboter]

Am 26.1.2024 um 16:30 schrieb IchBinKeinRoboter:

I've then imported these files into Lightroom Classic, and ... a file with pure red patches suddenly has traces of green and blue!  Same for the other primary colours.  And that's even without 'soft proofing'  -- why?

 

Answering my own question for future reference, and in case anyone else stumbles across this apparent phenomenon:

I had made the assumption that since ProPhoto RGB is larger than Adobe RGB, mapping any color from Adobe RGB to ProPhoto RGB should quite simply result in a numerically identical triple of (R,G,B) values.  However, since ProPhoto RGB is also of a different shape than Adobe RGB, mapping from smaller to larger color space does affect the numerical values.

I'm now going to brew myself a really strong cup of coffee.

[jaapv]

But, as LR works non-destructively in ProPhoto during the whole editing process and only converts "on the fly" for generating previews, this colour shift should not affect the final export, where the more elaborate conversion takes place, presumably from L*A*B* to whatever your output is.