pop Posted September 12, 2014 Share #221 Posted September 12, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Can we cut down a bit on the vitriol, please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 12, 2014 Posted September 12, 2014 Hi pop, Take a look here Anyone figure out why the 240 freezes up?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
CheshireCat Posted September 12, 2014 Share #222 Posted September 12, 2014 Can we cut down a bit on the vitriol, please? I don't call "vitriol" people waiting 1.5 years for a fix And if it is, some "vitriol" is to be expected Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 12, 2014 Share #223 Posted September 12, 2014 So you seriously believe that there is a cabin, back in the dark forests of Wetzlar, where a bunch of Gnomes are sitting around a woodfire, drinking hot Apfelwoi, wagging their beards and roaring with laughter at all those stupid customers that cannot understand the little jokes they built into the firmware? Hmm... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted September 12, 2014 Share #224 Posted September 12, 2014 So you seriously believe that there is a cabin, back in the dark forests of Wetzlar, where a bunch of Gnomes are sitting around a woodfire, drinking hot Apfelwoi, wagging their beards and roaring with laughter at all those stupid customers that cannot understand the little jokes they built into the firmware? Hmm... Yes....... But you have to admit Leica does not move quickly when it comes to fixing firmware issues Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 12, 2014 Share #225 Posted September 12, 2014 I don't call "vitriol" people waiting 1.5 years for a fix And if it is, some "vitriol" is to be expected A fix of what? The number of people reporting non-heat related lockups in this forum is under a dozen at a guess. On tens of thousands of cameras sold, how can we conclude anything else than that either a small number of cameras has a problem, or that a small number of people use the camera in such a stressed way that they break down? I know my conclusion... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted September 12, 2014 Share #226 Posted September 12, 2014 Instead of shipping a constant stream of cameras to Algrave, Leica could send him one with a black box recorder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 12, 2014 Share #227 Posted September 12, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes....... But you have to admit Leica does not move quickly when it comes to fixing firmware issues That is true, however, it must be hard to fix a firmware issue when it is not identified, nor even has been established whether it is a firmware issue or not... At the M betatesting sessions on this forum they were surprisingly reactive and competent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted September 12, 2014 Share #228 Posted September 12, 2014 A fix of what? A fix of hardware and/or software that makes our camera reliable and functional like the money I paid was. The number of people reporting non-heat related lockups in this forum is under a dozen at a guess. How can you tell which reported issues in this forum are heat-related and which aren't ? There are a lot more than a dozen people here lamenting issues. You want to know the actual number ? Make a forum poll and let it run for a couple months. See below. On tens of thousands of cameras sold, how can we conclude anything else than that either a small number of cameras has a problem, or that a small number of people use the camera in such a stressed way that they break down? I know my conclusion... I don't think all the tens of thousands M customers are registered on this forum. And how many of them are active users ? How many of the active users will waste their time posting a message to report a freeze ? You want a reliable number ? Make a poll for M users only: "Have you experienced camera freeze at least once since you bought your M ? Yes/No". After a couple months, let's see if the Yes/No percentage is similar to 12/tens_of_thousands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 12, 2014 Share #229 Posted September 12, 2014 A fix of hardware and/or software that makes our camera reliable and functional like the money I paid was. Make up your mind. Which fix? hard or software? How can you tell which reported issues in this forum are heat-related and which aren't ?There are a lot more than a dozen people here lamenting issues. You want to know the actual number ? Make a forum poll and let it run for a couple months. See below. Because the posters reported them as heat (and EVF) related and Leica did do a firmware update addressing the heat problem based on reports to them, and to be fair, on reports on the forum supporting their findings. I don't think all the tens of thousands M customers are registered on this forum. And how many of them are active users ? How many of the active users will waste their time posting a message to report a freeze ? You want a reliable number ? Make a poll for M users only: "Have you experienced camera freeze at least once since you bought your M ? Yes/No". After a couple months, let's see if the Yes/No percentage is similar to 12/tens_of_thousands. You'd be surprised at the number of users that find their way to this forum when they experience a problem. For the M9 sensor crack problem it turned out to be over 80%.The same sort of thing happened with the initial M8 IR and banding problems. Anyway, it is an utterly irrelevant number to Leica as they can only deal with problems reported to them. The forum is fine to signal a trend (like here, a minority of users) and as a mutual support group for the those affected, but that is all it is... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Martin Posted September 12, 2014 Share #230 Posted September 12, 2014 So you seriously believe that there is a cabin, back in the dark forests of Wetzlar, where a bunch of Gnomes are sitting around a woodfire, drinking hot Apfelwoi, wagging their beards and roaring with laughter at all those stupid customers that cannot understand the little jokes they built into the firmware? Hmm... Well perhaps we can now agree that the software is a joke , the retailers can point out the joke when you're handing over thousands of pounds dollars etc. it really does give the impression that they don't care about after sales and customer satisfaction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 12, 2014 Share #231 Posted September 12, 2014 I see you are still reading the Grimm brothers.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 12, 2014 Share #232 Posted September 12, 2014 Enable EVF Live View and keep the shutter pressed in continuous mode until the camera freezes. That is how you repicate the issue. Just shot 400 pics this way, 200 with LV+EVF (100 basic jpegs and 100 raw + fine jpegs) and 200 with LV alone (ditto 100+100). Outdoor temperature 20°C (68°F). Nothing happened as expected from my apparently freeze-free camera. How long did it take for yours to freeze if i may ask? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted September 12, 2014 Share #233 Posted September 12, 2014 well....... to make a medical analogy, we have Leica Lock-Up Syndrome...... which is basically a cluster of symptoms with no identifiable underlying medical disease. Causes are often multifactorial with lifestyle (=usage) and genetic (=hardware) and psychological (=firmware) factors. Treatment is often symptomatic to mitigate the syndrome.... and until research reveals an underlying cause there is not a lot more that can be done. With a small number of cases and an even fewer number who report symptoms accurately or consistently the actual reason ..... and cure .... may never be found. You can moan all you like about Leica, but unless you can supply them with a bit more evidence that is actually helpful we will still be having this conversation long after the M240 is replaced ........ The vast majority of people appear to have cameras that behave reliably when used in the fashion that Leica intended ...... so they are hardly likely to send an army of searchers into a haystack because of a few people who have lost needles...... I think there is hardly any modern product that marries mechanical and computer technology that does not have a variety of similar issues at some stage in its life. Most japanese camera producers have multiple incremental changes to their products and a much wider product base and variety ....... so problems are often ironed out in previous incarnations. Leica is playing catch-up ..... and doing it in much larger development jumps with much less legacy input on the electronic hardware/firmware. Leica will never be in the same league and I can never foresee a position where a new Leica product is perfect 'out of the box' ..... or where the problems are fixed as quickly as their competitors who are huge in comparison. ...... and before you reply ...... I am NOT a Leica 'apologist ...... I am a Leica 'realist' ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted September 12, 2014 Share #234 Posted September 12, 2014 Welcome to the Ignore List, , I'm going to write that in snow the next time I am in snow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 12, 2014 Share #235 Posted September 12, 2014 If it were the firmware the problem should be consistent. I.e. happening on all cameras. Right. It might not be a firmware problem. There could be a component or two that are susceptible to intermittent failure which is the most difficult kind of failure to diagnose. Perhaps not every camera has identical component sources, or source quality control. As Erl wrote - off to Leica for repair. BTW, the firmware was written in a well-known language used by Panasonic and Pentax for certain, and probably Olympus and several other developers. It has a lot of verbose debug options only available only to a developer. My confidence in the firmware is rather high. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted September 12, 2014 Share #236 Posted September 12, 2014 Based on a comment Jono Slack made to me I will start recording which batteries (battery) I am using when these lockups occur. He had some battery related isuues and after ridding himself of a bad one, it helped him. I do not let my camera go to sleep, so that is no longer an issue. I changed cards from the 32 to 64GB Extreme Pro Sandisk 95 MB/s cards. As stated I often use LV + EVF for hours. I turn off the camera when hiking without the intent of shooting. Here's an interesting one-At a Florence workshop this summer a participant was loaned an M240 which had not been turned on yet that day. The participant turned it on with EVF and LV on, was shown how to use the EVF with LV and focus peaking and then proceeded to test it by shooting maybe 5 images in Single shot mode with a good pause between each shot for focusing and seeing how LV and focus peaking worked for him. On the 6th shot it locked up. This guy naturally asked what's wrong with this camera. The "store" who loaned him the camera said it locked because the camera had beta FW in it and he removed and replaced the battery to get it going again. After the "store" guy walked away, I checked the loeaner camera's FW and it was the same FW that I had in my camera, not beta FW. I am assuming that any new FW, beta or otherwise, would not use the same FW# of an older FW as I had in my camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted September 12, 2014 Share #237 Posted September 12, 2014 well....... to make a medical analogy, we have Leica Lock-Up Syndrome...... which is basically a cluster of symptoms with no identifiable underlying medical disease. Causes are often multifactorial with lifestyle (=usage) and genetic (=hardware) and psychological (=firmware) factors. Treatment is often symptomatic to mitigate the syndrome.... and until research reveals an underlying cause there is not a lot more that can be done. With a small number of cases and an even fewer number who report symptoms accurately or consistently the actual reason ..... and cure .... may never be found. You can moan all you like about Leica, but unless you can supply them with a bit more evidence that is actually helpful we will still be having this conversation long after the M240 is replaced ........ The vast majority of people appear to have cameras that behave reliably when used in the fashion that Leica intended ...... so they are hardly likely to send an army of searchers into a haystack because of a few people who have lost needles...... I think there is hardly any modern product that marries mechanical and computer technology that does not have a variety of similar issues at some stage in its life. Most japanese camera producers have multiple incremental changes to their products and a much wider product base and variety ....... so problems are often ironed out in previous incarnations. Leica is playing catch-up ..... and doing it in much larger development jumps with much less legacy input on the electronic hardware/firmware. Leica will never be in the same league and I can never foresee a position where a new Leica product is perfect 'out of the box' ..... or where the problems are fixed as quickly as their competitors who are huge in comparison. ...... and before you reply ...... I am NOT a Leica 'apologist ...... I am a Leica 'realist' ... Most of us understand that no camera is perfect and free of problems, whether in use, ergonomics, or function, and that they are all compromises of one sort or another. Some problems are bigger and more nettlesome than others. Having to remove a bottom plate and then remove a battery to reset a locked-up camera is not a "small" problem. The vast majority of Leica M240 users are probably not Leica Forum members and/or contributors, and thus are not being heard from in this conversation. By way of example, my brother owns an M240 and has reported the same problem to me (but not to the Leica Forum). You have reported the problem. Can the problem be lived with? Sure. Does the problem diminish my affection and loyalty for a brand I have been using for over 40 years? Definitely. Could the problem be fixed? Of course. Explaining away a clear and significant defect in functionality that afflicts more than a few users (and both of my M240s) with various "possibilities" is no solution either. I am sure Leica are well aware of the problem. IMHO, the question is whether they will make -- or already have made -- the decision to do something about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 12, 2014 Share #238 Posted September 12, 2014 I can assure you - if there is a problem they can pinpoint they will do something about it if at all possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted September 12, 2014 Share #239 Posted September 12, 2014 I can assure you - if there is a problem they can pinpoint they will do something about it if at all possible. Jaap It is not "if there is a problem". There IS a problem. One should be able to use this M240 with or without EVF, with or without LV, with or without C of S mode or any other way it was designed to be used, without lockups. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted September 12, 2014 Share #240 Posted September 12, 2014 I am sure Leica are well aware of the problem. IMHO, the question is whether they will make -- or already have made -- the decision to do something about it. The answer is....they are working on the new Mxxx and hoping that will not have the same issues..... ...... higher and faster processing power and lower power consumption if they have any sense.... Beta testing the last firmware showed they acknowledged there was a heat related issue when using the EVF and fixed it .... but not a mention of any other 'lock up' problems..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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