CEO Alfred Schopf and future products

[MarkP]

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Well, let's see.

 

• Members of this forum have been asking for such a camera for a few years now.
   
  
• Leica has acknowledged there is a gap in their product line, where such a camera would fit in.
   
  
• "Very wise" members of this forum said Sony would not (could not) make such a camera, but they did (how about that?) - granted, there is a problem with some wides, and some wides also work with it.
   
  
• The Sony is selling well.
   
  
• Leica already has the FF sensor and mount system which works well (okay, better than the Sony) with Leica wides. All they need to do is to drop the CRF and improve the EVF, and streamline the electronics.
   
  
• Leica understands producing classic designs with minimal controls and a superb interface.
  

 

So, Leica could do an awful lot far better than Sony, they could charge a bit more, and it would sell like hotcakes to a significant (for Leica) market segment. Currently, the only full frame mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses are the M and the A7 cameras, and Leica is the only one with lenses to go with it. It would be hard for Leica not to produce a far better camera than Sony ...

 

Conversely, how many APS-C cameras are there out there ... yawn ... They're competing with cellphones.

 

But, we seem to be still stuck on the rangefinder ... Making such a camera would not stop Leica from producing the full rangefinder M camera - why would it stop? It struggles to fill orders as it is.

 

Cheers

John

 

Spot on!

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[wildlightphoto]

All of that could (and maybe should) be done within the M system; none of it would amount to an argument why Leica should build a non-rangefinder FF camera compatible with M lenses.

 

It would stand a better chance of being an adequate solution for R lens owners. But PLEASE NO APS-C! APS-C is a lemon of the last decade that was sold to camera buyers as lemonade.

[MarkP]

It would stand a better chance of being an adequate solution for R lens owners. But PLEASE NO APS-C! APS-C is a lemon of the last decade that was sold to camera buyers as lemonade.

 

 

I think Leica will be selling lemonade.

I so hope I'm wrong but I bet it will be APS-C and no VF.

[IkarusJohn]

Which translates into how many cameras that could be sold to these members? Three digits or four digits?

 

I understand that this is about increasing Leica’s market share and an APS-C EVIL camera with a new line of AF lenses could do so much more towards that goal than any M-compatible FF EVIL camera could. At least in my view which Leica may or may not share.

 

Seriously? You think that the only people who want a Leica EVIL are on this forum? Is it not possible that this group is representative? I always thought that this forum was a small(isn) representation of all Leica owners.

 

I guess we already have some idea of that - how many NEX cameras (APS-C) do you think are sold right now, compared to A7 cameras (FF)?

 

If the fuss and reports are anything to go by, my expectation is that you are completely wrong on this one, Michael, except in one respect - your (apparent) confirmation that Leica has no intention of making this camera.

 

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

 

I think Leica will be selling lemonade.

I so hope I'm wrong but I bet it will be APS-C and no VF.

 

Here comes another dud!

[algrove]

When Leica advertised the Mini M, a Leica store immediately had 250 German customer orders. Once they confirmed it was NOT a Mini M, but the Vario, the same store had one sale in the first many days and after that sold an additional 20+ over the next 3 months mostly to Asian tourists.

 

What happened to the 249 other German customers? They are waiting for a Leica FF, EVIL interchangeable M lens camera. This is but one store among hundreds of stores.

[IkarusJohn]

That sounds plausible to me, Lou.

 

But I think Michael has been as clear as he can be (without breaching his NDA) that it won't be full frame. Hold onto your hats for yet another camera that the beta testers (notice Jono has gone quiet?) tell us give great IQ; but actually, none of us want.

 

Yawn. It's going to be boring.

 

I guess the interesting bit will be Leica explaining how there really aren't that many people buying RX-1 and A7r cameras, and full frame in this segment is covered by the fabulous M(240) which is selling more than they can produce ...

 

Where's the manual for my A7r. I need some cheering up. I've just put the 75 Summilux on - yeah baby! I need something to photograph!

 

 

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[lct]

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Letting aside 4/3 and its compromises, APS is the only way to keep AF lenses as small as what an M user could expect IMHO. Want a 50 a la Sony as big as an M 90? Thanks no thanks. As a happy user of R-D1 and M8.2 bodies since 2004 i know by experience that it is a good format for me. For LF we'll have LeicaSinar, for MF the S and for FF the M and its unique small manual lenses that can be used on the APS body as well. Sure that the M240 is not the best body as far as LV/EVF is concerned but its successor will improve from this standpoint. So welcome to APS again!

[luigi bertolotti]

Letting aside 4/3 and its compromises, APS is the only way to keep AF lenses as small as what an M user could expect IMHO. Want a 50 a la Sony as big as an M 90? Thanks no thanks. As a happy user of R-D1 and M8.2 bodies since 2004 i know by experience that it is a good format for me. For LF we'll have LeicaSinar, for MF the S and for FF the M and its unique small manual lenses that can be used on the APS body as well. Sure that the M240 is not the best body as far as LV/EVF is concerned but its successor will improve from this standpoint. So welcome to APS again!

 

+1

[rosuna]

Two different cameras, one based on APS-C and new mount, and another one based on FF and M mount, are possible.

 

Leica has a web of Leica Stores, and they need different products for different segments, so the new APS-C system makes sense in this context.

 

One rich client parks his expensive car, enters the Leica Store at, say, Los Angeles, and asks for a camera for his wife or daughter... Leica at this moment only can offer Panaleicas, an M camera or the S. There is a huge gap in between. They have the X2 and X Vario cameras, but these cameras have non interchangeable lenses. Leica needs something for filling the gap there. So the new T system comes in. The sexy AF camera and maybe a zoom and a few cute fix focal length lenses, a beautiful lacquered case and a big red dot logo everywhere. That is the plan. The client does not understand anything about megapixels, format size or luminosity of a lens, neither the wife or daughter do. But they know the brand Leica is the coolest brand in photography. So he looks for a cute, trendy, fashionable and expensive present, just like that Prada purse or those Manolo Blahnik shoes he gave as a gift last Christmas. Maybe 6,000 euros for the complete case, 2,500 euros for the camera and one lens. Peanuts.

 

It may work... in this context. This kind of product is absurd without the Leica Stores concept, but complimentary and maybe necessary for them.

 

My point and concern is that it cannot work out of this context, say, in a normal photo store. No way. Next year you will have many alternative APS-C systems with image stabilization, sensor antidust systems, luminous lenses, different price segments, small size, different form factors, etc. (Pana, Oly, Fuji, Pentax, Canon, Sigma, Sony, Samsung...), and at a fraction of the price (half or less...)! Even more: the potential client with serious money to expend and higher requirements will not look at those systems anymore. They will be looking for FF systems, the new trend (Sony and small size reflex cameras by Canon and Nikon, maybe Pentax... maybe Fuji next year...).

 

So... how large is the narrow segment in which the new "T system" will be sold? I am sure Leica did the calculations. They have an illustrative experience: the (beautiful) X Vario camera. They know the numbers, I don't.

[AlanG]

Nex 6 with 16-50 and a bag are on sale at the Sony store for $750.

[algrove]

rosuna

 

You make many good points and leave the door open for what you say-- a new camera and/or format or more than one new camera.

 

It was earlier suggested that Jono has gone silent, but that is not the case on getDPI.

 

He loves the latest Oly E-M1 and uses it as his walk around favorite with in camera stabilization and a variety of Zuiko lenses that focus fast and sharply for him. He likes the micro 4/3's form factor and finds they print up to 24" just fine for him.

 

He had a Sony a7r for a few days and just returned it mentioning he did not want to assemble a whole additional system since he feels it is best used with native FE glass (and found it not necessarily to his liking with M glass I surmise). However, there are so few lenses currently available in FE mode, he will revisit the Sony A7r system when more lenses become available and especially in the WA category and/or the 24-70 FE due out in early 2014. Sorry for paraphrasing you Jono and if I got anything wrong, I apologize.

 

Now to speculations... I wonder if perhaps Jono is truly testing something for Leica in a less than FF format and got the Sony just for informational purposes for himself and for Leica so he could give feedback based on his extensive micro 4/3's experiences and to offer any suggestions for a Leica EVIL one day.

 

He is the ultimate tester for Leica with his well choreographed and exposed images and incredible ability to keep his mouth firmly shut.

 

I don't remember if he tested the Vario for them.

[rosuna]

The new A7 and A7r Sony cameras are very interesting, and they are selling extremely well. They are a breaking or turning point in the industry. I think the best word is a catalyst, accelerating many preexisting processes.

 

But... there is a caveat...

 

The mount is narrow (only 2mm wider than the M mount) and combined with an extremely short flange distance (even shorter than the M's).

 

I think Sony will have many problems for bringing wide angle lenses and fast lenses to this system.

 

There are 4 interconnected variables (size, luminosity, cost and quality) and the before mentioned constraints put a lot of pressure on them. They cannot strongly relax one of the variables, so the future lenses will be relatively/comparatively large, expensive, not very fast and helped by internal software.

 

Anyway, any new APS-C system by Leica only can be understood considering the particular market that Leica is aiming at. This is, the luxury market. Build quality, good design and high potential image quality is enough (the X Vario is a good example). The question is if that luxury market is large enough for supporting a new system of cameras and lenses in the long term.

[algrove]

How true and It could also take away from M and M lens sales if many want Leica, but find the smaller form factor is enough for them. OK, they might want to graduate up the line, but for some years that new form factor could hold back new M buyers who want modern, easy focusing (to them) instead of RF.

[AlanG]

 

I think Sony will have many problems for bringing wide angle lenses and fast lenses to this system.

 

 

No problem. They'll be whatever size they need to be for the performance required and whatever design and cost constraints they feel are pertinent. E.g. they have a cheap kit zoom and a more expensive 24-70 coming. they have small slower lenses first (although the 55 1.8 is not slow) and will probably make larger fast lenses later. Canon's TSE lenses are big and people accept them for what they do. Some people are buying the Otus and that is huge for a 55 1.4 Several companies will make AF and MF lenses for this camera. I don't see why Sony can't quickly make FE versions of some Alpha lenses once there are enough A7 bodies sold.

 

If Metabones can speed up the AF in their adapter, then Canon lenses will work for more people too. If you are shooting still objects, countless MF lenses will be fine. I think there are more current lens choices for this camera than any other FF camera that has ever been made.

[jaapv]

How true and It could also take away from M and M lens sales if many want Leica, but find the smaller form factor is enough for them. OK, they might want to graduate up the line, but for some years that new form factor could hold back new M buyers who want modern, easy focusing (to them) instead of RF.

If the profit per unit is comparable it makes little difference to Leica which type they sell. I'm sure there are enough potential buyers to keep the M line alive -which they must for their image in the market-, even if the focus of sales would would shift to another camera system.

[hoppyman]

I was surprised at the candour of Alfred Schopf in the interview. Especially in the light of Leica Camera's language (remember the Photokina Q&A session then published in the Blog) after the last time this system was publicly hinted at (in an interview with the British Journal of Photography I think).

 

This new information (from the CEO after all) would have to have been deliberate in the interview with (Australian) Camera magazine. I would have thought that this interview would now be published complete, perhaps in the Blog. I guess we will see if that happens. For copyright reasons, readers here (Australia) with the magazine aren't permitted to publish the entire article of course. I thought that it was of great interest to this Forum when I mentioned the excerpts in this thread.

 

Personally I think that some kind of interchangeable lens system based on the X system (my interpretation and speculation from reading that interview only) and with that sensor size and form factor for body and lenses makes perfect sense for Leica in their range. I guess we will find out sometime in 2014.

 

I do not think that Alfred Schopf was describing a resuscitated R10 (full size dSLR and system) although that hope no doubt remains alive in the R faithful. He was broadly discussing a product below the M system remember in their price bands.

 

Having guessed and speculated all of that, I might as well continue.

I don't see why any new system could not be provided with an adapter system for M&R or I guess other systems via third party, just like the M (Typ 240) has. Maybe some qualified forum members (and some less so like me ;-) will respond on that?

 

Just like then it will not please everyone of course. I think that Leica Camera's primary purpose in this is to sell more Red Dot products to more of the marketplace. That assumes that they will even have production capacity to get it to market anytime soon.

 

They have consistently said two things that they won't do, ever since Stefan Daniel spoke to us at the Forum meeting in 2009.They don't think that micro four thirds fits their approach and they will not be trying to sell a full frame (24x36) dSLR in that market segment.

[IkarusJohn]

They have consistently said two things that they won't do, ever since Stefan Daniel spoke to us at the Forum meeting in 2009.They don't think that micro four thirds fits their approach and they will not be trying to sell a full frame (24x36) dSLR in that market segment.

 

Actually, three things - they won't develop a further series of lenses. That effectively means the fixed lenses for the X series and interchangeable lenses for the S Series and M series cameras.

 

Why they would develop an APS-C based camera (or even APS-H, like the M8) with and M mount is beyond me. There's way more competition in the APS-C market segment than in full frame (and they already have the mount, the sensor and firmware for in camera adjustment for full frame).

 

The rationale is presumably that they don't want to put pressure on the M(240) - when actually, they can't meet demand for this camera.

 

Cheers

John

[hoppyman]

Cheers

John

Not quite John. I seem to recall that there were some caveats related to production and design capacity at the time along the way ;-) I agree with you that their production capacity is stretched already currently. Wetzlar is not yet on line of course but I think that the new Portugal factory is. Remember that they have been ramping up lens production too. I think the last numbers I heard quoted in one of their interviews were triple what they were formerly and they are aiming higher. No-one invests that kind of effort unless they are confident that they can sell it all. That is for the cameras they have now.

 

In any case the comments are quite explicit regarding a new AF lens system. To use with what sensor we shall see I guess. Perhaps you are right. I don't see how AF lenses designed for good performance with such an image circle could fit within the desirable form factor though. Remember we are talking about a system cheaper than the M and presumably more compact else what would be the point?

My view is that any such new system whenever and if will not compete directly with the M at all (and neither do the new Sony bodies as a vehicle for Leica M lenses).

 

Quite enough speculation and interpretation from me now I think

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[earleygallery]

If Leica aren't prepared to design a new range of lenses then they're really stuck, unless they can somehow make AF lenses that will work with an M mount.

 

If not they've effectively closed the door on themselves to ever being able to offer anything other than the M and fixed lens cameras. That would seem rather stupid.

[IkarusJohn]

I went looking for the quote, but could only find Stefan Daniel saying the mirrorless would be at least APS. Got bored.

 

Leica will do what Leica will do. What they've said in the past is only part of the picture, and they don't seem too worried about it themselves.

 

Cheers

John