Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

[jaapv]

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Would be great, but unfortunately it was a small batch ordered from Panasonic with P. building a batch for themselves as well. It would require designing and building from scratch.

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[dkCambridgeshire]

When Thorsten Overgaard interviewed Stefan Daniel at Photokina last September they initially discussed CMOSIS's new sensor which SD referred to as, " ... the Leica MAX CMOS sensor ..."

 

Given that CMOSIS's brief was to develop the new MAX sensor for the new M camera, then it would seem feasible that they might also have been given a brief to develop a new MINI sensor - which could have resulted in a new M MINI camera.

 

Thus the M 240 which has no real M designation could be termed the M MAX ... with its new June 11 sibling the M MINI ... also having a CMOS sensor.

 

And there might even be a new M MICRO with yet another even smaller CMOS sensor.

 

And why CMOS? Because CMOS sensors with more efficient micro lenses do not necessarily require telecentric camera lenses. Any so called 'R Solution' cameras need to have a CMOS sensor to enable use of all wide angle R lenses.

 

You might wish to have another look/listen at Thorsten's interview to hear Stefan Daniel talking about the " .. Leica MAX CMOS sensor ...' ; it's mentioned in the first minutes of the video.

 

Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Pages - Page 29 - (Leica M10 or) Leica M Type 240 and Leica ME Digital Rangefinder Camera - First Impressions from Photokina 2012 ... scroll down to "Interview with Stefan Daniel on the floor at Photokina 2012"

 

And later in the interview Stefan Daniel says, "I never said sell your R lenses!"

 

Furthermore, last September CMOSIS stated on their website, " The sensor (ie referring to the M MAX CMOS sensor) is the first milestone in a long term, strategic cooperation between Leica Camera AG and CMOSIS"

 

There are numerous references on the internet to the Leica M MAX CMOS sensor. Now it seems quite logical that it could be followed by a Leica M MINI CMOS sensor .. and that both could originally have been specified together.

 

Best wishes

 

dunk

[jjb]

Would be great, but unfortunately it was a small batch ordered from Panasonic with P. building a batch for themselves as well. It would require designing and building from scratch.

 

JAAP, for the lofty price segment of $3500 ($3000 body/lens + probably $500 for a VF), it seems logical to expect a little "design from scratch" - if the market opportunity is big enough. But, I assume their engineering resources are already stretched this year, so Leica decided to move opportunistically by leveraging the existing X2 platform.

 

I expect Leica is working hard on several new products for 2014 and Photokina. Maybe this includes a modern "digital CL" to sit above the Vario, as they wind down production of the M-E?

[jaapv]

I doubt the market is large enough. We, as Leica nerds, know the user value of the Digilux2 and can appreciate what a wonderful camera such a Digilux4 would be.

The larger public Leica is aiming at will only see a yesterday's shaped camera with an unfashionable small sensor and a lens that is too large...

[TW528]

I doubt the market is large enough. We, as Leica nerds, know the user value of the Digilux2 and can appreciate what a wonderful camera such a Digilux4 would be. The larger public Leica is aiming at will only see a yesterday's shaped camera with an unfashionable small sensor and a lens that is too large...

 

I don't know about that. There are a lot of "enthusiast" cameras out there now that people like us never thought would come to market like the Fuji x100, Sony RX-1, etc. These cameras are selling better than anticipated. The X Vario would have been my next if it were not for the slow lens. I wasn't expecting f2.0 - 2.4 but for that zoom range f2.8 - 5.6 is my absolute limit.

[jjb]

I doubt the market is large enough. We, as Leica nerds, know the user value of the Digilux2 and can appreciate what a wonderful camera such a Digilux4 would be.

 

Agreed, Jaap, regarding that market size observation.

 

I envision a Leica planning diagram showing the customer segment bullseye for the Vario X, reflecting estimated market sizes and Leica's prioritized customer targets. In that graphic, I think they chose for their bullseye some sort of luxury goods consumer, representing decent, low-hanging sales/profits.

 

But our enthusiast segment ("Leica nerds" as you call them) might be just an outer ring on that customer target.

 

On the other hand, photo enthusiasts are not just a sales opportunity for Leica. We offer substantial hidden value through free, effective word-of-mouth advertising, and even through our product feedback. We are among Leica's most valuable evangelists, at least that's what I tell myself.

 

Leica would not want to lose that, and we need Leica to keep delivering high performance products for enthusiasts. A symbiotic relationship.

 

Ya, of course I'm OK with Leica occasionally serving up products for other segments! So long as they toss us a few bones too - something priced south of the S ($22K+lens) and the M ($7K + Lens)! Hey Leica, don't make me buy "used" again!

 

I hope to enjoy future Leica announcements, leading up to Photokina next year.

[marknorton]

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Leica's plan to create feverish expectation by throwing a teaser to the rabid forum dogs has certainly worked but when they've done it before, the reality has fallen well short.

 

My money is on an X2 with an M mount.

[lct]

...I wasn't expecting f2.0 - 2.4 but for that zoom range f2.8 - 5.6 is my absolute limit.

Could you quote a single lens like that with a small size in APS format?

[CaptZoom]

My money is on an X2 with an M mount.

 

^This would be fantastic. I'd get it to accompany my M9, until the M11 (or whatever it's called) is released at that point I'll upgrade the M9.

[FrozenInTime]

Could you quote a single lens like that with a small size in APS format?

The X.107 lens seems to be about the right size given these three compact (not very fast) APS_C zooms :

 

 

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS Alpha E-mount Retractable Zoom Lens

 

and this

 

 

Samsung 20-50mm f/3.5-5.6 ED II Lens - Black

 

Neither likely to be the sharpest lenses or free of distortion.

 

This is probably a bit better ( and a bit larger )

 

 

Ricoh GXR A16 15.7-55mm f/3.5-5.5

[wlaidlaw]

Leica's plan to create feverish expectation by throwing a teaser to the rabid forum dogs has certainly worked but when they've done it before, the reality has fallen well short.

 

My money is on an X2 with an M mount.

 

Mark,

 

In the absence of a range of AF M mount lenses (howsoever that might be achieved) I think that would be a very limited market camera. 99%+ of the world now does not know how to focus an MF lens. I still think mFt.

 

Wilson

[lct]

None of them being f/2.8-5.6 right?

 

The X.107 lens seems to be about the right size given these three compact (not very fast) APS_C zooms :

 

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/892390.jpg

 

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS Alpha E-mount Retractable Zoom Lens

 

and this

 

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/868410.jpg

 

Samsung 20-50mm f/3.5-5.6 ED II Lens - Black

 

Neither likely to be the sharpest lenses or free of distortion.

 

This is probably a bit better ( and a bit larger )

 

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/multiple_images/item_images/IMG_244803.jpg

 

Ricoh GXR A16 15.7-55mm f/3.5-5.5

[Paolo.Battista]

I doubt the market is large enough. We, as Leica nerds, know the user value of the Digilux2 and can appreciate what a wonderful camera such a Digilux4 would be.

The larger public Leica is aiming at will only see a yesterday's shaped camera with an unfashionable small sensor and a lens that is too large...

 

Digilux 2 was the first compact camera witha relatively large sensor, electronic viewfinder and a very fast zoom lens (Oly c-8080 was announced almost at the same time, but it had a broader range and slower zoom lens).

X1 was the first compact camera with a "big" sensor.

M8 was the first serious digital rangefinder.

M9 was the first FF digital rangefinder.

M type 240 was the first FF mirrorless camera with an electronic viewfinder (and a rangefinder too ).

Such a Digilux 4 (with the specs of the rumor) would be the first large sensor compact with such a slower zoom. In the middle of a world of fixed and interchangeble models. Ok to be first, but....

[dkCambridgeshire]

Mark,

 

In the absence of a range of AF M mount lenses (howsoever that might be achieved) I think that would be a very limited market camera. 99%+ of the world now does not know how to focus an MF lens. I still think mFt.

 

Wilson

 

One mFt camera makes sense if the latest Leica model hints ie Mini, Micro, and Nano are considered. But then the Mini could be something larger than mFt i.e. maybe a new APS size CMOS sensor. If the V-Lux 4 and 40 are discontinued there could be room for a new Nano camera. If CMOSIS supplies all the sensors they would all be CMOS types.

 

The M 240 sensor is already called the 'MAX CMOS' sensor.

 

Why call a new model 'MICRO' if it does not have a mFt sensor? Micro 4/3 is already such a well established format it seems unlikely that Leica would use the model designation 'MICRO' for a format other than mFt.

 

Similarly, why designate a new camera as 'MINI' if it does not have a smaller than FF (ie smaller than existing 'MAX') sensor?

 

More than one new camera could be announced on June 11.

 

Maybe CMOSIS could even supply Panasonic with new CMOS sensors - then volume production of new mFt and NANO sensors (and cameras) could be better justified.

 

dunk

[marknorton]

Leica have of course said they don't want to be involved with mFT, or introduce another lens mount with all the associated complexities but of course they are entitled to change their mind. Can't see a new camera positioned, say, between X2 and M Typ 240 in price would have a smaller sensor than the X2, so if it is not FF, it could be the M sensor cropped to 16MP.

 

I've never understood the rationale behind the X2 with its fixed lens...

[NJH]

Panasonic certainly need that help, apart from the GH3 their well behind the sensor tech curve. Their latest G5 to G6 update was a huge disappointment for recycling yet again the old sensor. Its always interesting to see what may come from the inter-company collaborations.

 

My dream affordable Leica would be an M8.3 using a cut down CMOSIS sensor and faster more modern processing. That with my M8 would see me set for a long time to come but as much as I and others would love such a camera I can't see Leica making it. Maybe such a sensor in a MILC without the RF makes sense as then it could be claimed it doesn't take sales from the M240 due to the sensor crop? Is a crop sensor still acceptable? There are many in the world who are not obsessed with full 35mm frame and see the current trend as somewhat of a fashion trend. Personally I feel that 1.3x to 1.5x is a nice compromise.

[lct]

Rightly or wrongly Leica don't want to make crop lenses for now. They should do so if they launched a crop cam with interchangeable lenses failing which FF wides would be too long and/or too slow for that. To get an equiv. 28/2, for instance, we would need a 19/1.4 in APS-C format. No wonder how big it would be and how much it would cost in FF format.

[lupico]

If the specifications mentioned in the french ipad screen shot are correct, it would (at least for me) be hard to justify spending big money on a Mini M compared to a Fuji XE-1 with a superb 18-55.

 

Including the built-in EVF and with the interchangeable lens system the Fuji would be the more intelligent solution. I can`t imagine Leica would ignore the existing market and would put their trust in brand name loyalty alone. I still believe the "leak" is photoshopped - but it is well made and hard to rule out. An x2 type camera with fixed non-zoom lens and built-in EVF would have more market acceptance IMO.

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[250swb]

Leica have of course said they don't want to be involved with mFT, or introduce another lens mount with all the associated complexities but of course they are entitled to change their mind

 

They have shot their mouth off before regarding many things. But there comes a time to stop shooting themselves in the foot.

 

What Leica is drastically lacking are the flexibilities offered by big technology partners. On the one hand there is Olympus with as fine a tradition for lens design as Leica, and especially with its Sony sensor partnership, or Panasonic who are equally adept at design and innovation. Of course the threat would be that Leica would also have to compete with Olympus or Panasonic, and the design innovation would have to be better than looking at what is in the current parts bin (which is I suspect where the Mini M is coming from). But it would be good for Leica to compete rather than react a year or so after everybody else has done it (which is what I suspect the Mini M is about). Leica should be showing off its fine tradition for excellence at the front of the pack, and that requires access to technology before it has been released, not 'sometime later'.

 

Steve

[Lee Martin]

If the specifications mentioned in the french ipad screen shot are correct, it would (at least for me) be hard to justify spending big money on a Mini M compared to a Fuji XE-1 with a superb 18-55.

 

Including the built-in EVF and with the interchangeable lens system the Fuji would be the more intelligent solution. I can`t imagine Leica would ignore the existing market and would put their trust in brand name loyalty alone. I still believe the "leak" is photoshopped - but it is well made and hard to rule out. An x2 type camera with fixed non-zoom lens and built-in EVF would have more market acceptance IMO.

 

 

Fuji have just announced big discounts on the X series cameras including the XE 1. $200 off the body and $300 off their 18-55 zoom if you buy it with a body. So a $500 saving for the combination that may well already out specify the pending Leica launch "Mini M". Perhaps Fuji are launching something new or want to create demand and get more exposure prior to Leica's launch.

 

There's a link from The.me today