The R solution - more details

[ho_co]

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Howard,

I am right-handed

 

Damn, Jerry!

 

You've spoiled it!

 

I had a perfect theory, and here, the first person I ask goes and blows it out of the water!

 

 

Reason for the question: I notice (here and in other threads) that you use the "\" character where many others and I use the "/" character.

 

I had previously noticed that a left-hander described the "acute accent" ( ´ ) exactly the opposite of the way I do: To me, it runs from top right downward to the centerline of the letter; to him, it runs from the centerline of the letter upward to the right.

 

I had also noticed that a different left-hander in the same workplace referred to the "/" as a "backslash" rather than a "slash."

 

I had hoped I could build all those individual observations into a coherent whole.

 

 

Thanks for the response!

Edited January 24, 2011 by ho_co

[Jerry_R]

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[Nicoleica]

Has anyone looked at the R10 concept camera on LeicaRumors ? There's also an M9 concept camera shown there.

[Mauribix]

This entire thread is leading me to wonder why do people buy EVIL mirrorless cameras to use manual lenses with them, instead of just using their AF glasses (which are pretty good anyway)

I must be missing the point for example in using a wonderful 5500€ lens (Summilux 21-24) as a nice slow manual focus fast 35mm lens with 0,7m minimum focus distance limit. LOL

[pico]

This entire thread is leading me to wonder why do people buy EVIL mirrorless cameras to use manual lenses with them, instead of just using their AF glasses (which are pretty good anyway)

 

Speaking only of the Lumix G1, the kit lens is not bad, and I was okay with it for happy snaps, but the sensor is not at all good. I have used it with manual focus lenses from Leica (75mm Summilux & 35mm Summulix) and performance was not adequate - all due to the sensor.

 

Finally, I tried Voigtlander''s 25mm F/.95 and that convinced me that the Panasonic sensor is just not very good at all, but the lens is very good.

 

So the summary answer to your question - I bought it because I did not believe it would be so inferior. I was wrong.

Edited January 25, 2011 by pico

[Jerry_R]

This entire thread is leading me to wonder why do people buy EVIL mirrorless cameras to use manual lenses with them, instead of just using their AF glasses (which are pretty good anyway)

u43 - OLYMPUS

There aren't fast u43 Olympus lenses, plus distortions are being corrected by software. Sharpness is weak, a lot below SHG 43 lenses.

 

u43 - PANASONIC

There is only 20mm f/1.7 (software corrected), which is not bad indeed, plus PanaLeica 45mm f/2.8 (warmer color than 20mm, better for portraits) and recent 14mm f/2.5 (software corrected).

No other fast & sharp lenses.

 

NEX

There aren't fast "E" lenses, plus their sharpness is poor.

 

NX

Most of lenses just arrive, are announced or hang on road map. Existing ones are not good, not bad and are also being corrected. And many lenses that will come - are HUGE.

 

* * *

There was another thread on forum - what brings Leica quality, and all agreed that mostly (but not 100%) is due to lenses.

So why you are surprised, that people try to attach that small, fast, sharp lenses to EVILS?

 

Not many can afford M9.

[Numinous Images]

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An updated digital back for the R8 / R9 using the technology of the M9 or S2 makes the most sense for R users. My DMR is definitely the weak link in the R system images.

[jaapv]

:confused:Most users prefer the DMR to just about anything...weak link??

[Riley]

not sure if the crop factor is an asset or otherwise

certainly aids long FL shooters a bit, that has to be worth something

[halmanas]

I use an EVIL camera with old manual focus lenses from Olympus, Nikon, and Tamron using the appropriate adapters because it is hard to find lenses this good made for these cameras and because I hate the lag that seems to be ever present when using the auto-focus and auto-exposure modes. I was delighted to find that I could manually focus a digital camera other than an M9. While this is not a perfect solution, it is better than anything else that I could come up with to use these excellent lenses that I have had laying around for decades. With an M9 you are somewhat limited in the telephoto range. I now have access to my old 500mm mirror lens. With an M9 zoom lenses are off the table. With this EVIL set-up I have the use of my old 43-86mm Nikkor. I also have a couple of Zuiko zooms, but I seldom use them. This is just to explain why some people might choose this solution. It has some advantages as well as some drawbacks. We should all try to keep an open mind.

[adan]

Most users prefer the DMR to just about anything...weak link??

 

10 Mpixels is not 18 Mpixels. A 19mm lens cropped to "28mm" is not a 19mm lens. A 135mm f/2.8 lens cropped to "180mm" doesn't provide the same background separation as a true 180 @ f/2.8. The DMR has about the same noise @ ISO 800 as the M9 does at 1600 (same difference as between the M9/M8).

 

There may be plenty to like about the DMR compared to other existing and available options for R lenses (noise structure of CCD vs CMOS, tonality or color clarity vs. CMOS, no physical AA filtering, ergonomics and controls (lens stop-down, manual shutter dial and aperture rings, split-image focus screen)) - but ImageAce was "blue-skying" the addition of an M9 sensor (or an equivalent minus the M-specific modifications), which would include all those as well as the things I listed in the first paragraph.

 

I'd prefer a DMR over, say, a Nikon D80. Assuming the price was under $2500 including an R9, and assuming I worked in a niche market like wildlife or daylight sports where the crop is an advantage. In the places where I actually shoot sports (ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/250th), it wasn't in the running.

 

The "more details" listed here pretty much confirm what I'd already assumed from Leica's previously-revealed comments to the LUF at PhotoKina. Multiple years away, EVF (and thus dependent on significant improvements over the "best" EVFs today). When it arrives I'll give it serious consideration, taking into account all of the characteristics, features and capabilities I listed in the first two paragraphs.

[wildlightphoto]

not sure if the crop factor is an asset or otherwise

certainly aids long FL shooters a bit, that has to be worth something

 

Assuming the pixel pitch and all other features and specs were the same, I'd rather use a full-frame camera instead of a cropped camera so I'd have the option of cropping as fits the composition instead of being required to crop the lens' image circle.

[dickgrafixstop]

How about coming out of left field? Let Leica buy the rights to the Contax G2 system

from Kyocera and outfit it with a digital sensor. Modify the mount - or leave it alone - and

contract with CV to build the lenses to sell as a second tier family at a nearly affordable

price. Get rid of that awful "champagne" color and replace with traditional black and chrome exterior, put a logo on it and go forward. Solves a couple of problems - a potentially

affordable camera in at a new price point that doesn't cannibalize M series sales (at least while there's still the audience of diehards out there) gives you autofocus system without new lens designs (mount change is considered only a minor tweak),

Sure, the "purists" will bellyache that if it isn't German that Oscar will roll over in his grave,

but the majority of the new audience could care less. Solms gets a new revenue stream,

the brand gets wider distribution, and they could get it to market before Fuji adds interchangeable lens to the X100.

[jaapv]

10 Mpixels is not 18 Mpixels. A 19mm lens cropped to "28mm" is not a 19mm lens. A 135mm f/2.8 lens cropped to "180mm" doesn't provide the same background separation as a true 180 @ f/2.8. The DMR has about the same noise @ ISO 800 as the M9 does at 1600 (same difference as between the M9/M8).

 

There may be plenty to like about the DMR compared to other existing and available options for R lenses (noise structure of CCD vs CMOS, tonality or color clarity vs. CMOS, no physical AA filtering, ergonomics and controls (lens stop-down, manual shutter dial and aperture rings, split-image focus screen)) - but ImageAce was "blue-skying" the addition of an M9 sensor (or an equivalent minus the M-specific modifications), which would include all those as well as the things I listed in the first paragraph.

 

I'd prefer a DMR over, say, a Nikon D80. Assuming the price was under $2500 including an R9, and assuming I worked in a niche market like wildlife or daylight sports where the crop is an advantage. In the places where I actually shoot sports (ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/250th), it wasn't in the running.

 

The "more details" listed here pretty much confirm what I'd already assumed from Leica's previously-revealed comments to the LUF at PhotoKina. Multiple years away, EVF (and thus dependent on significant improvements over the "best" EVFs today). When it arrives I'll give it serious consideration, taking into account all of the characteristics, features and capabilities I listed in the first two paragraphs.

No reflection on Andy, he is in the good company of the vast majority of photographers, but this post is a perfect illustration why there will never be an R10. Specifications before quality, technology before photography. Fortunately a number of first-rank photographers on this forum disagree and use the DMR.

[Mauribix]

u43 - OLYMPUS

 

There was another thread on forum - what brings Leica quality, and all agreed that mostly (but not 100%) is due to lenses.

So why you are surprised, that people try to attach that small, fast, sharp lenses to EVILS?

 

Not many can afford M9.

 

If someone couldn't afford an M9... yep, there'd be still an M8 out there... used price can be as low as 1400bucks...

And IQ is much higher in all respect.

 

But then again... some can't afford an M9, but how they can afford a Noctilux instead:confused:?

I think that's just a question of priorities... in which photography is not involved.

 

It may be just me, but if I had to choose within an M8+CV 35 1.4 for less than 2000bucks,

and any EVIL + 24lux (or 28cron) for more than 4000bucks... well, call me stupid, but still there's no point IMHO. My choice would be M8+35

I mean, a tool to shoot, not to chimp while tryin' to.

 

I don't think that's just a matter of costs... otherway a pure M would be simply much better to use M lenses nowadays.

 

 

With an M9 you are somewhat limited in the telephoto range... ...I also have a couple of Zuiko zooms, but I seldom use them.

Isn't this weird?

 

We should all try to keep an open mind.

We should all try to keep photography on our mind, not tools IMHO, that's the meaning of being open-minded IMHO.

 

The weird thing is that for years, after the beginning of digital photography age, people owning numbers of great lenses complained (rightly) on the crop factors.

I can still hear their complaints. And now?

Now that FF is there, some of them simply come back to extreme crop factor (2x or 1,6x)... and voilà, that's not a problem anymore!

 

Yes, I'm still surprised to know that people use expensive lenses, with lower quality cameras, with huge crop factor, and chimp-like shooting methods.

 

There are 2 digital M cameras for M lenses, a DMR + a couple of Canikon FF digital cameras for R lenses, and still there's someone who think this is not enough (so, meanwhile, let's happily crop!).

 

 

I mean, I'm still baffled.

[ho_co]

... The weird thing is that for years, after the beginning of digital photography age, people owning numbers of great lenses complained (rightly) on the crop factors.... And now?

Now that FF is there, some of them simply come back to extreme crop factor (2x or 1,6x)... and voilà, that's not a problem anymore! ...

Maurizio, brilliant! Thanks for pointing it out!

 

I see it everywhere, but I had never recognized it: "Wow, my M8's no good because of the small sensor, so I think I'll get micro Four Thirds instead."

 

Thank you! You've made my day!

[adan]

"Specifications before quality, technology before photography."

 

Nope - not what I said at all. Re-read my post.

[berndr]

I am still waiting for a new young company building a good quality full frame EVIL.

 

The camera should have an open lense adaption possibillity (electronic contacts and mechanics).

 

And the software should be open source.

 

Kind regards,

Bernd.

[jaapv]

With all due respect, Andy, you start your post with a list of specs to defend the use of "weak link" whereas my thinking is: If it is the tool of choice of first rate photographers like Doug Herr and Charlie Chan,it is certainly not a weak link. I plead guilty to overstating to make my point, but the point is valid: The tendency of users to buy the latest sensor instead of buying a camera drives the market, and drives Leica into a niche where a DSLR is impossible.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

It is a niche where photographers are more interested by image quality, cristal clear viewfinder and manual operation than up-to-date gadgets. The Leica niche so to speak.