The R solution - more details

[roydonian]

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When I provided some details of the discussion between Mr Stephan Daniel and members of the LHSA last October on the subject of the planned R replacement, I limited what I wrote at that time in the expectation that the next issue of the LHSA magazine would report at length on what was said.

 

Alas, it did not, so I now feel free to give as many details as I can remember. I did not make notes at the time, so if I have misrepresented anything in what follows, then a private message to me would allow Leica to point out any errors.

 

 

The position seems to be this:

 

The new camera is still largely at the concept stage, and we should not expect it to be shown at the next Photokina.

 

It will be based on an electronic viewfinder (EV), and I was left with the impression that Leica considers the current state-of-the-art to be barely acceptable, so is waiting for that technology to improve.

 

The new body would be able to use M lenses – presumably via an adaptor. The company is aware of the problem that older M users have with the traditional rangefinder as eyesight deteriorates, and Daniel indicated that this could be a solution for them.

 

Faced with suggestions that an EV solution might be acceptable to amateur R users but not to professional users, Daniel replied that he expected that high-quality EVs would be used in future professional cameras – the days of the mirror box and pentaprism were coming to an end.

 

Looking further towards the future, Daniel was asked if he could foresee a further simplification of digital cameras, with the elimination of the traditional shutter, and the sensor output being collected only over the required time period. He replied that while the concept of a camera with few moving parts was an attractive one, it was not likely to arrive for some time. An interim stage might be to use a shutter either to begin the exposure or to end it.

 

Since other camera makers can be expected to follow a similar route to Leica, producing cameras that would have high-quality EVs, how would the Leica offering differentiate itself from those rival systems, Daniel was asked. Perhaps it could incorporate a rangefinder, he replied. (Since the R solution would have to give some electronic indication that the image was in focus, this ‘rangefinder’ would presumably be some second form of focus indicator.)

 

Leica is aware of the demand for an M9 in the traditional silver chrome and vulcanite-style finish and is making a marketing study of its commercial practicality. (To which my response was “My credit card is ready whenever you are.”) When I asked about the traditional ‘Leica’ top plate script engraving, his response was that this was already available at customer request.

 

 

A couple of points from Dr Kaufmann’s presentation also went unreported by the LHSA.

 

Leica would follow its own individual route in creating new products, he stated, and should not be judged (or its future predicted) based on what other camera manufacturers chose to do. The company would continue to develop high-quality finely-crafted hardware of traditional configuration. He showed a slide containing images of about a dozen current cameras of relatively unconventional form (such as large lenses connected to the body via a swivelling mount), and said that Leica would never produce such designs.

 

Best regards,

 

Doug Richardson

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[jaapv]

One addition to the remark about the Leica script ( I have it on both my M8s and my M9), Leica provides a-la-carte leather for the M8/9 as well nowadays. (Have that as well)

[earleygallery]

Sounds more like a 'non-solution'. With no estimated date of availability, and the comment that they are "waiting for technology to improve" should be enough to finally put the idea to bed.

[anderswi]

Leica already have Pansonic as bed mate, and Pansonic is already producing cameras with electronic viewfinders. They don´t have walk that long for the technology. Hopefully they get along. Greetings.

[stunsworth]

Leica already have Pansonic as bed mate, and Pansonic is already producing cameras with electronic viewfinders

 

I have one on my Panasonic GF-1. It is a long, long, way from being remotely as good as an optical system on an SLR. In that respect Herr Daniel is correct, current consumer EVFs - at least the ones I've tried - aren't ready to replace an optical viewfinder. I'm sure the day will come when they are, but we aren't there yet.

[mooky]

Thanks for providing some additional clarity.

 

But I for one at least, have finally scrubbed the tire marks out of my clothing after being thrown under the bus by the last of Leica's R 'promises'. Really, whenever, by then, who will really care?

 

Oh, they'll probably call it some new system camera that will happen to allow use of the R lenses. But I'm done with any and all of their promises. I can see the PR statement; "after 6 years of waiting and hanging on our hurry-up and wait promises,,,,"

 

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." Boy, and to think how I used to go to bat for them.

[jaapv]

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Well, I have more than a suspicion that most if not all former R customers of Leica R have found their own solution, ranging from using film only over the DMR to using their lenses on a modern DSLR. Not much of a market left for Leica I should think.

[mjh]

I have said it before and I say it again: There is no market worth going after for a dedicated R solution, for Leica or anyone else. If and when there will be an R solution from Leica, first and foremost it will target a different and larger market … and only incidentally will it also double as an R solution for anyone who still cares.

[WestMichigan]

Thanks to the OP for all of this information.

I Think that 'despair' over this 'solution' arriving in the near term, far term, or if at all, is an entirely well earned sentiment by Leica R Supporters, Enthusiasts, and Professionals.

 

I also Think that coming up with a Bifurcated Camera System suitable for Leica M users AND Leica R users is an entirely Reasonable and Marketable Product. I specifically note the reference to M Users who have to stop using their Rangefinder Cameras and Lenses due to Failing Eyesight. A way to allow these customers to keep using their Leica Lenses makes good sense because it also keeps them available as potential buyers of Leica Products for a longer period of time. I also see it as a way to access an incremental market of buyers who want a peak tier luxury photographic device, but either can't or don't want to invest in the learning curves and demands of RF Photography. Such a Camera's ability to be sold for use with R Lenses, too, is simply just one more incremental market available for making sales.

 

Heck, it's also possible to sell lenses designed and built just for a New EVF Camera - Autofocus, Zooms, Macro, etc etc.

 

As for 'Professional Cameras' headed toward Electronic Viewfinders - Sony has already announced that the Replacement for their a900 Full Frame dSLR will have an EVF rather than an optical prism based viewfinder. While the a900 ain't exactly as fully 'pro' as a NiCan D3/1D weather sealed 'wunder' camera - it ain't exactly a Plastic Econo Rebel Either.

 

Richard in Michigan

[Douglas Sharp]

I have said it before and I say it again: There is no market worth going after for a dedicated R solution, for Leica or anyone else. If and when there will be an R solution from Leica, first and foremost it will target a different and larger market … and only incidentally will it also double as an R solution for anyone who still cares.

 

I'm glad to read that at least one contributor is talking sense.

 

I just noticed that the translation "presentable" for the German expression "darstellbar" turned up again on Leica Rumours.

 

The meaning of this is more like "We took a look at the idea, saw it was going to be much too expensive, would be a disaster in marketing terms, have extremely limited demand and we can't see a way to getting anything like that on the market in a month of Sundays - so forget it"

 

It's engineer-speak and has nothing whatever to do with presentable, possible, scheduled, planned, decided, in development or anything else that sounds even vaguely positive or hopeful.

 

Sorry to pour cold water on all our hopes, but that's the way it looks.

 

Cheers

Douglas

[jaapv]

Thanks to the OP for all of this information.

I Think that 'despair' over this 'solution' arriving in the near term, far term, or if at all, is an entirely well earned sentiment by Leica R Supporters, Enthusiasts, and Professionals.

 

I also Think that coming up with a Bifurcated Camera System suitable for Leica M users AND Leica R users is an entirely Reasonable and Marketable Product. I specifically note the reference to M Users who have to stop using their Rangefinder Cameras and Lenses due to Failing Eyesight. A way to allow these customers to keep using their Leica Lenses makes good sense because it also keeps them available as potential buyers of Leica Products for a longer period of time. I also see it as a way to access an incremental market of buyers who want a peak tier luxury photographic device, but either can't or don't want to invest in the learning curves and demands of RF Photography. Such a Camera's ability to be sold for use with R Lenses, too, is simply just one more incremental market available for making sales.

 

Heck, it's also possible to sell lenses designed and built just for a New EVF Camera - Autofocus, Zooms, Macro, etc etc.

 

As for 'Professional Cameras' headed toward Electronic Viewfinders - Sony has already announced that the Replacement for their a900 Full Frame dSLR will have an EVF rather than an optical prism based viewfinder. While the a900 ain't exactly as fully 'pro' as a NiCan D3/1D weather sealed 'wunder' camera - it ain't exactly a Plastic Econo Rebel Either.

 

Richard in Michigan

I'm not so sure about such a multifunctional camera on consideration - normally the Swiss Army Knife approach does not hold much appeal for Leica's customer base.

[Mauribix]

Douglas an Michael had said it all.

 

 

Sometimes I just compare my needs as a professional. The biggest issue with the R cameras (and Leica is aware of that) is that technologically it's not up to the professional market's demand to put a camera with no AF in 2011.

While it was still acceptable some years ago, a new generation of professional and amateur photographers is growin' up. That's a fact.

Those are not willing to get rid of technological features such as the AF in the name of a supposed-to-be superior lens quality (yep I know, it sounds funny to call AF a technological feature ).

Some of the new Nikon and Canon glasses are absolutely fine lenses, and much more cheaper.

Then, some Zeiss for F and EOS mounts are lovely, but please, tell me who does a frequent professional use of them? Is it acceptable nowadays? If you shoot in a photojournalist style, NO. And still RF have its advantages when it's up to manual focussing. Those are not as practical for studio works as well.

Yep, they're surely good for zen-I-have-all-the-time-and-a-tripod-like shooting style.

But, even in that needs, a MF camera should be better IMHO.

 

There must be a quantum leap towards competitors to sell a camera with a supposed-to-be higher price as an eventual "R10" should.

 

The M9 is the only DRF camera, so its price makes sense.

The S2 is the only MF camera in a DSLR body, so still its price range makes a sense.

 

A DSLR camera with manual focus, in a bunch of seasoned competitors, makes sense just to nostalgics IMHO.

 

As a metter of fact a Digital Back is still the best "R solution" for those who care. Otherway, a simple 5D with "shaved" mirror is the ultimate solution for those who liked to use all of their R glasses. But I know (since I own it): the main issue with that is the total absence of a Leica logo on top of it.

 

I wish Leica to improve the M solution and the S line. I would be afraid to know of a disastrous DSLR leaving less funds for them in R&D.

 

my 2cents

[mjh]

I just noticed that the translation "presentable" for the German expression "darstellbar" turned up again on Leica Rumours.

Rumour sites would be more useful if the people running those sites did know what they were talking about. For one thing, it isn’t usually a good idea to enter into speculations based on a Google translation of a foreign language text. The Chinese whispers version of Leica News & Rumors was that ‘Leica is working on a mirrorless solution, but for financial, technical and other reasons this solution is not yet “presentable”.’ Only the original German text this refers to wasn’t talking about a mirrorless solution at all – it was talking about the R10, i.e. a DSLR: ‘Eine digitale Lösung in Form einer digitalen R10 war “nicht darstellbar”.’ And as you said, “nicht darstellbar” means the R10 project wasn’t feasible (especially from a business perspective), implying it had to be cancelled. It doesn’t mean they were working on something that wasn’t presentable just yet, but rather that they had stopped working on it.

 

The digital R solution repeatedly hinted at by Stefan Daniel is, we must presume, “darstellbar” – otherwise they wouldn’t be working on it. It must be something Leica views as being technically feasible and making good business sense.

[wildlightphoto]

... a simple 5D with "shaved" mirror is the ultimate solution for those who liked to use all of their R glasses. But I know (since I own it): the main issue with that is the total absence of a Leica logo on top of it.

 

The main issues are the mush of the 5D's AA filter, the bit depth that makes darker tones look like cheesecloth stretched too far when you need to bring out shadow detail, the variable mirror box calibration, and the lack of an auto aperture with R lenses. I don't give a rat's a$$ what logo is on the camera.

[tgm]

 

The new body would be able to use M lenses – presumably via an adaptor. The company is aware of the problem that older M users have with the traditional rangefinder as eyesight deteriorates, and Daniel indicated that this could be a solution for them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many M users would appreciate if they could use their M lenses on such an interesting camera, but how should that work? The flange focal distance of an R lens is larger than that of an M lens. So there is no space for any adapter. The other way round, putting an R lens on an M body might work, at least from point of view of flange focal distance.

 

Thomas

[adan]

Thomas, I think the assumption is that this new camera would have a flange distance shorter than EITHER an M or R camera (like a micro/43rds or Sony NEX but with bigger sensor) and that adapters - of different lengths - would be required for both M and R lenses.

 

With an EVF, there is no need for the thick mirror box of classic mirror-and-groundglass-and prism SLRs.

[mjanisch]

Maybe a camera with an interchangable lens mount - if such a thing is possible. This way they could also introduce a mount for AF lenses. Just daydreaming...

[Douglas Sharp]

Maybe a camera with an interchangable lens mount - if such a thing is possible. This way they could also introduce a mount for AF lenses. Just daydreaming...

 

 

Of course if some company were to produce a camera body for (almost) all marques of legacy lenses, they would have a reasonably solid selling proposition.

 

Good name though "The Leica Legacy Camera":)

 

Probably much more of a pie in the sky than an R10 - unfortunately - though I would love to have a full-frame digital option for a pile of Canion FD, CY, Leica, Pentax, Rollei and Oly lenses.

 

But, for me, the best (and probably cheapest) current option is to send my Coolscan V ED in for a CLA and and put new batteries in a bunch of film cameras.

 

At least they are all FF and the lenses fit without adapters. And, if more people get back to using film, it won't die off after all:)

 

Cheers

Douglas

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[slungu]

Well, I'm sorry to say it, but the Leica-R solution exists for some years now, only not from Leica : you can use those lenses easily on a Canon EOS system or, a little more complicated, on the Sony Alpha cameras. Plus you will have the benefit of using AF lenses. Something like that could be made by Leica, but they would have a hard time coming up with a full range of AF lenses also. Having a system for both would be something like a Sony NEX plus EVF, and you would still have to finally come up with a range of AF lenses. Or, you target only a small portion of the market and do what Zeiss are doing : manual focus lenses with electronic aperture control for the ZE lineup. Problem is : what are the chances on the market for such a product ? Only time will tell.

[rosuna]

Thomas, I think the assumption is that this new camera would have a flange distance shorter than EITHER an M or R camera

 

... or just the same flange distance than M cameras...

 

The problem of a flange distance shorter than that is the implied necessity of a smaller format (smaller than 24x36).

 

An electronic viewfinder implies a CMOS sensor.

 

So the "solution" is a M camera with CMOS sensor and electronic viewfinder, electric contacts (presumably on the M mount), and support for new AF lenses... The R lenses may be used with an adapter, using some kind of ROM-to-new contacts adapter. Manual focus M lenses may be used directly. The new M AF lenses may show moderate speeds (Summarit AF lenses), but small sizes. It would be the first 24x36 EVIL camera (assuming Canon doesn't follow this route).

 

Leica has to wait for that to be possible from a technical point of view... They need a good electronic viewfinder, a CMOS sensor capable of good performance with very short flange distances and low consumption, a new LCD... etc. It doesn't depend on Leica. They need the availability of all those parts.

Edited January 21, 2011 by rosuna