I love my… I love my M3

[ironhorse]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 5/14/2021 at 8:31 PM, Martin B said:

Great fast modern glass with vintage look in combination with the best rangefinder film camera ever made. What else is there to say?

Photo taken with Leica M-E 240 and Leica 50/2 Summicron pre-ASPH

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

What lens is on the M3? It's a very attractive combination.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[hektor]

1 hour ago, ironhorse said:

What lens is on the M3? It's a very attractive combination.

It appears to be the Voigtländer Nokton 1:1.5/75

Edited July 2, 2021 by hektor

[zanzibarbungalow]

My M3 with 5cm Summarit and XOONS hood. My favorite little combo.

Taken with the Q2M.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Ernest]

M3 DR
M246 Macro-Elmar
I am the second owner of this Type 4.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Ernest

[RayD28]

16 hours ago, Ernest said:

M3 DR
M246 Macro-Elmar
I am the second owner of this Type 4.

 

 

Ernest, what does "I am the second owner of this Type 4." mean?

Lovely camera, BTW.  I have an M3 and DR with black hood sitting on the dining room table waiting for me to load some film.  

 

[Ernest]

10 hours ago, RayD28 said:

Ernest, what does "I am the second owner of this Type 4." mean?

Lovely camera, BTW.  I have an M3 and DR with black hood sitting on the dining room table waiting for me to load some film.  

 

I bought this M3 with DR “outfit,” which included a collapsible 90 mm Elmar and a 135 mm Tele-Elmar, in 1981 from a camera store that sold it for the original owner who purchased it perhaps no earlier than 1966. I also got the Leica-Meter MR-4, Universal Carrying Case, and the Eveready Case all for about $1200. In the carrying case, I found the Leica and Leicaflex Catalog No. 39 (1966) in which the owner had highlighted the items he wanted to purchase and added up their cost. An M3 with DR was listed for $477 at the time. Since this M3 was produced in 1960 and has the serial number importation cards, I suppose it is possible it could have been sold before 1966, in which case I would be third in line. I had Gus Lazzari give it a complete overhaul last year, so I am set for the duration. 

[RayD28]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, Ernest said:

I bought this M3 with DR “outfit,” which included a collapsible 90 mm Elmar and a 135 mm Tele-Elmar, in 1981 from a camera store that sold it for the original owner who purchased it perhaps no earlier than 1966. I also got the Leica-Meter MR-4, Universal Carrying Case, and the Eveready Case all for about $1200. In the carrying case, I found the Leica and Leicaflex Catalog No. 39 (1966) in which the owner had highlighted the items he wanted to purchase and added up their cost. An M3 with DR was listed for $477 at the time. Since this M3 was produced in 1960 and has the serial number importation cards, I suppose it is possible it could have been sold before 1966, in which case I would be third in line. I had Gus Lazzari give it a complete overhaul last year, so I am set for the duration. 

Thanks for the interesting history.  But I still don’t understand “Type 4”. Other than single stroke and double stroke, I am not aware of “Types” regarding M3s. 

[Ernest]

19 hours ago, RayD28 said:

Thanks for the interesting history.  But I still don’t understand “Type 4”. Other than single stroke and double stroke, I am not aware of “Types” regarding M3s. 

Published by Zoom America Inc., the magazine “Classic Camera: Dedicated to the Leica M” (Issue 21 February 2002) traces the development of the M3 

Type 1 1954 to 1955, 2-stroke, nonlinear speed dial (1, 2, 5, 10 . . .) without viewfinder frame selector, with contoured lugs (Serial numbers: 700000-785800)

Type 2 1955 to 1956, 2-stroke, nonlinear, with viewfinder frame selector, contoured lugs (785801-854000)

Type 3 1957 to 1958 2-stroke, linear (1, 2, 4, 8, 15 . . .) with viewfinder frame selector and contoured lugs (854001-915250)

Type 4 1958 to 1966, 1-stroke, linear shutter speed scale, with viewfinder frame selector and round lugs (915251-1206999)

”The first M3s produced are characterized by the lack of the viewfinder frame selector lever on the front, the glass film pressure plate and the two-stroke wind lever. The first camera is produced to have a number of details that were later modified: there are only four screws fastening the bayonet ring instead of the later five; the film counter reference is white on the original cameras, later changed to black; the rewind knob reference mark is originally linear in shape, later becoming pointed; other nonessential details were also changed, such as the shape of the lug rings. In 1955, after 50,000 Leica M3 cameras had been produced, a lever to select and preview the finder frame lines was added on the front left under the finder window. In 1957, after the manufacture of another 30,000 Leica M threes, the international linear shutter speed scale (1, 2, 4, 8, 15 . . .) was adopted and the 1/50th synch was marked with a lightning bolt. Further modifications were made on the Leica M3 with the international scale, of which over 143,000 were produced up to 1968. The glass pressure plate was replaced by a metal one, the lug rings changed shape from the elongated to round and the marking on the rewind knob was change from two red dots to one and, finally in 1958, starting with serial number 915, 251, the shutter reset and film wind lever was changed from two- to one-stroke. While all the other details are considered secondary, the difference between the two-stroke and one-stroke Leica M3s is considered fundamental for collecting purposes.”

You might find this magazine on eBay.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Ernest

[RayD28]

5 hours ago, Ernest said:

Published by Zoom America Inc., the magazine “Classic Camera: Dedicated to the Leica M” (Issue 21 February 2002) traces the development of the M3 

Type 1 1954 to 1955, 2-stroke, nonlinear speed dial (1, 2, 5, 10 . . .) without viewfinder frame selector, with contoured lugs (Serial numbers: 700000-785800)

Type 2 1955 to 1956, 2-stroke, nonlinear, with viewfinder frame selector, contoured lugs (785801-854000)

Type 3 1957 to 1958 2-stroke, linear (1, 2, 4, 8, 15 . . .) with viewfinder frame selector and contoured lugs (854001-915250)

Type 4 1958 to 1966, 1-stroke, linear shutter speed scale, with viewfinder frame selector and round lugs (915251-1206999)

”The first M3s produced are characterized by the lack of the viewfinder frame selector lever on the front, the glass film pressure plate and the two-stroke wind lever. The first camera is produced to have a number of details that were later modified: there are only four screws fastening the bayonet ring instead of the later five; the film counter reference is white on the original cameras, later changed to black; the rewind knob reference mark is originally linear in shape, later becoming pointed; other nonessential details were also changed, such as the shape of the lug rings. In 1955, after 50,000 Leica M3 cameras had been produced, a lever to select and preview the finder frame lines was added on the front left under the finder window. In 1957, after the manufacture of another 30,000 Leica M threes, the international linear shutter speed scale (1, 2, 4, 8, 15 . . .) was adopted and the 1/50th synch was marked with a lightning bolt. Further modifications were made on the Leica M3 with the international scale, of which over 143,000 were produced up to 1968. The glass pressure plate was replaced by a metal one, the lug rings changed shape from the elongated to round and the marking on the rewind knob was change from two red dots to one and, finally in 1958, starting with serial number 915, 251, the shutter reset and film wind lever was changed from two- to one-stroke. While all the other details are considered secondary, the difference between the two-stroke and one-stroke Leica M3s is considered fundamental for collecting purposes.”

You might find this magazine on eBay.

Amazing info!  Thanks for sharing. 

[hektor]

Type 4 1958 to 1966, 1-stroke, linear shutter speed scale, with viewfinder frame selector and round lugs (915251-1206999)

I am wondering about the accuracy of the article published by Zoom America Inc., the magazine “Classic Camera: Dedicated to the Leica M” (Issue 21 February 2002).

In 1960 my father bought an M3 and three lenses all of which I inherited and still have.  Its number is 962***.  Its lugs were not of the later type.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited October 5, 2021 by hektor
typo

[Ernest]

10 hours ago, hektor said:

Type 4 1958 to 1966, 1-stroke, linear shutter speed scale, with viewfinder frame selector and round lugs (915251-1206999)

I am wondering about the accuracy of the article published by Zoom America Inc., the magazine “Classic Camera: Dedicated to the Leica M” (Issue 21 February 2002).

In 1960 my father bought an M3 and three lenses all of which I inherited and still have.  Its number is 962***.  Its lugs were not of the later type.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Wow! Lucky you! Great M3. I checked the Wetzlar Serial Number list, and 962*** (961701-966500) was produced in 1959, and mine 991154 (990751-993600) was produced in 1960. I am not a Leica historian, so I can't attest to the validity of Camera Classic magazine, though it provides more information than G. Rogliatti's Leica: The First 60 Years. Even so, the article in Camera Classic doesn't disallow the contoured lugs in both Type 4 and Type 3 models. There are two M3s pictured with round lugs and labeled as Type 3, though their serial numbers of 1001122 and 1110074 places them in the Type 4 group. Shouldn't they be identified as Type 4? There are no photographs of Type 4. The text of the article, however, says only that "the lug rings changed shape from elongated to round" without definitively stating that Type 4 evidenced this transition. Your M3 and mine illustrate that Type 4 used both lug configurations. Thanks so much for questions because this never would have been on my radar. What other lenses beside the 50 mm Summarit did you get? 

[105012]

There were many more variations than the simplified Types given in that article. At least, on the limited categorisations shown, Type 4 should be between 920k and 963k, which are the sought after (by Japanese collectors) spring return single stroke models, all of which have Buddha’s ears lugs. After that, we could call Type 5, which have ratchet return (more noisy, less smooth) and round lugs. I could go into more detail…

[hektor]

2 hours ago, Ernest said:

 What other lenses beside the 50 mm Summarit did you get? 

Good morning Ernest,

It came with a rigid 5cm Summicron, 35mm Summicron (8 element) with spectacles, and 135mm Hektor, Leica leather carrying case and Leica bulb flash.

I use it more with the Summarit for its defects, hence the photograph posted.

[Ernest]

2 hours ago, 105012 said:

There were many more variations than the simplified Types given in that article. At least, on the limited categorisations shown, Type 4 should be between 920k and 963k, which are the sought after (by Japanese collectors) spring return single stroke models, all of which have Buddha’s ears lugs. After that, we could call Type 5, which have ratchet return (more noisy, less smooth) and round lugs. I could go into more detail…

Very interesting and a testament to the ongoing development of the M3, alone. I have the spring return SS, so I was cautioned by the camera dealer when I bought mine to avoid letting it "snap" back and hit the speed selector knob. 

[Ernest]

21 hours ago, 105012 said:

There were many more variations than the simplified Types given in that article. At least, on the limited categorisations shown, Type 4 should be between 920k and 963k, which are the sought after (by Japanese collectors) spring return single stroke models, all of which have Buddha’s ears lugs. After that, we could call Type 5, which have ratchet return (more noisy, less smooth) and round lugs. I could go into more detail…

Thank you so much for your expertise and experience. Please go into more detail as you offered.

Rog

[Prosophos]

deleted post

Edited October 6, 2021 by Prosophos

[Prosophos]

deleted post

[105012]

7 hours ago, Ernest said:

Thank you so much for your expertise and experience. Please go into more detail as you offered.

Rog

Hi Rog

There were so many things that changed, in fact 10 subtypes up to 963,000, and then another for the end of production (1966 year). These range from the markings of the rewind knob, through wind on mechanism, lug shape, shutter dial speeds, shape of wind on lever, shape of top case,  guard on lens release button, size of viewfinder (eye side), film info dial, frame preview lever, film backing plate, film counter disc, DoF indicators in focus patch, internal changes, ...

A lot changes between 1954 and 1959, then stable to the end...

Whether it is useful to identify all 11 main subtypes individually, I'm not sure?

Anyway, hope that helps 😀

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Ernest]

1 hour ago, 105012 said:

Hi Rog

There were so many things that changed, in fact 10 subtypes up to 963,000, and then another for the end of production (1966 year). These range from the markings of the rewind knob, through wind on mechanism, lug shape, shutter dial speeds, shape of wind on lever, shape of top case,  guard on lens release button, size of viewfinder (eye side), film info dial, frame preview lever, film backing plate, film counter disc, DoF indicators in focus patch, internal changes, ...

A lot changes between 1954 and 1959, then stable to the end...

Whether it is useful to identify all 11 main subtypes individually, I'm not sure?

Anyway, hope that helps 😀

 

Wow, thanks so much for sharing your encyclopedic knowledge! Frankly, I had no idea or appreciation of the extent of the ongoing design and development of the M3. Is there a resource that traces the ongoing development of the M3? Or is this something that you have in the works? No doubt Leica M3 users would be avidly interested in your identification and discussion of "all 11 main subtypes." 

Rog

[105012]

51 minutes ago, Ernest said:

Wow, thanks so much for sharing your encyclopedic knowledge! Frankly, I had no idea or appreciation of the extent of the ongoing design and development of the M3. Is there a resource that traces the ongoing development of the M3? Or is this something that you have in the works? No doubt Leica M3 users would be avidly interested in your identification and discussion of "all 11 main subtypes." 

Rog

Hi Rog, certainly don't think I'm an expert, just have lots of old Leica books! I am sure there is something comprehensive over at LHSA as well, anyone know? Also the Leica-wiki here is useful.

From what I have seen, the main serial number ranges would be (approximately):

1. 700 000 to 700 800
2. to 703 000
3. to 782 000
4. to 785 000
5. to 844 000
6. to 854 000
7. to 919 250
8. to 950 350
9. to 963 000
10. to 1 139 000 (not sure on this?)
11. remaining production

Lots of minutae awaits!