ReidReview review of Leica SF58 Flash Unit

[Washington]

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Re: lars_bergquist:

That's a lovely photograph as it stands and could it be better? What's that?

Too subjective and I sure am no critic... I just know what I like and the hell

with "why"?

Perhaps a flash with the Fong unit might help give more detail in the highlights

(flame) and open up the shadows a wee bit. But, you'd be messing about with

exposure and flash power settings to do it in all probability you'd miss the shot

altogether. Again, lovely picture.... and it reminds me of one of my all time favorites

shot by Jack Delano on 4x5 Kodachrome in 1942. See:

Locomotive Dreams: 1942 | Shorpy Historic Photo Archive

[giordano]

Would flash had been beneficial to the picture below?

 

Obviously not, if your intention was a good, dramatically lit photograph of a smith at work.

 

But if you were illustrating a book or article about working iron, the picture would be far more useful if it clearly showed the anvil and the tools waiting on it - which would need a touch of flash or other artificial light.

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[viramati]

have looked through the thread and have seem the question asked but not really answered. Is there really a difference in tile between the pre-flash and the main flash in the Sf 24d and the SF58

[Luke_Miller]

have looked through the thread and have seem the question asked but not really answered. Is there really a difference in tile between the pre-flash and the main flash in the Sf 24d and the SF58

 

I have both flashes. With the SF-24D I can see the pre-flash through the viewfinder followed by the main flash (two distinct flashes very close together). With the SF-58 I see one slightly longer flash.

[viramati]

Thanks Luke

[egrossman]

First let me qualify what I'm about to say by explaining that I came from a Canon backround where I routinely used a 580EX flash as needed. I switched to an M9 about 3 months ago and overall its been a very enjoyable experience (particularly with lenses like the 50mm Lux ASPH). 2 days ago I received my SF58 from B&H. As others have said it makes the camera top-heavy when used with the camera's shoe. I've had mixed results in terms of use and it cerrtainly isn't as easy to get it right as it was on the Canon. Some of that I can honestly attribute to my lack of experience with a new system. I am highly likely to return the flash. Not only does it detract (in my opinion) from the typical look I've been getting from available light photography on the platform but it completely removes one of the primary reasons I embraced the rangefinder platform in the first place. Discrete photography.

[Luke_Miller]

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I am highly likely to return the flash. Not only does it detract (in my opinion) from the typical look I've been getting from available light photography on the platform but it completely removes one of the primary reasons I embraced the rangefinder platform in the first place. Discrete photography.

 

Like you I like discrete photography and use of any flash defeats that. As someone who occassionally does paid photography I am highly biased towards getting the shot even if the use of flash is necessary to do it. That said, I do not use on-camera direct flash. Sean Reid (who occassionally posts here) has a very nice subscription site where he has detailed reviews of (primarily) Leica bodies and lenses.

 

Welcome to ReidReviews

 

He also has articles on the use of flash. Sean is a wedding photographer and currently shoots with the M9 and SF-58. Many of the shots on his site are from his wedding work and involve the use of flash. They really look like available light shots.

 

A free site that is the best I've found on flash photography is that of another wedding photographer, Neil van Niekerk.

 

http://neilvn.com/

 

Between Sean and Neil I've learned it is possible to use flash and still have the result appear natural as if no flash were used. I can't always achieve that look, but I'm getting better.

[egrossman]

Thanks Luke. I already subscribe to Reid Reviews (I do wish he would scrap the flash-based (no pun intended!) copy protection of content... but that is another story) and find his write-ups extremely informative. It was based upon his essays on the '58 that I bought one.

 

I don't shoot weddings. I shoot for fun (mostly family, friends and landscapes). I tried to like the flash but so far have not been able to.

Edited December 8, 2010 by egrossman

[menos I M6]

Thanks Luke. I already subscribe to Reid Reviews (I do wish he would scrap the flash-based (no pun intended!) copy protection of content... but that is another story) and find his write-ups extremely informative. It was based upon his essays on the '58 that I bought one.

 

I don't shoot weddings. I shoot for fun (mostly family, friends and landscapes). I tried to like the flash but so far have not been able to.

 

I too love the discrete and simple use of the M for available light shooting. I mostly shoot in dark hours though, which starts a completely different issue with the digital M, I didn't had with Nikon DSLRs - poor high ISO performance.

 

My route to fight that was to go exclusively with superfast lenses as Summilux and Noctilux.

I also added a SF58 a few days ago after having a bad experience with the SF24D.

 

If the 58 is used in closed rooms, bounced on camera, it provides very nice results. I will keep it and learn to use it also direct and in open space, although it looks far from being as easy and good in use as the Nikon flash system.

 

I would not give up on the flash. It indeed is heavy and big on a M, but it does allow, to go from ISO 1250/ 2500 down to ISO 640 or even 320 and get a natural fill flash look, not resembling the awful pocket camera harsh direct flash look.

 

One has to lear to master the flash - Sean Reid's essay on how to use flash (I also despise his very slow flash site) is an excellent start to go from.

[ShotCapture]

What is the minimum distance from which you can shoot the SF 58 with direct flash and have TTL work?

[ShotCapture]

Am I correct that the M9 does not have a FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation) provision? That it must be changed on the SF 58 flash?

[menos I M6]

Am I correct that the M9 does not have a FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation) provision? That it must be changed on the SF 58 flash?

 

Correct.

Settings related to flash sync are the only flash related settings made in camera.

[ShotCapture]

...If the 58 is used in closed rooms, bounced on camera, it provides very nice results. I will keep it and learn to use it also direct and in open space....

I also find that TTL on the flash works well with bounce, (manual on the M9). But I don't understand why I am needing to dial down 8 to 12 stops from the indicated correct setting to get a correct DIRECT flash, (ie. go from 1,000 ISO to 160). And this is with already using -3 EV on the flash. Getting TTL to work for FILL direct flash seems impossible. I've subscribed to ReidReviews and hope it sheds some light, but haven't been able to log in yet after paying my subscription this morning. I'm guessing it will open up for me tomorrow.

[Luke_Miller]

I have both flashes. With the SF-24D I can see the pre-flash through the viewfinder followed by the main flash (two distinct flashes very close together). With the SF-58 I see one slightly longer flash.

 

I was practicing with both flashes today and I could actually see the SF-58 pre-flash. Perhaps my eyes were fresher today or the room lighting was different. In head to head comparison I could see no difference in the interval between the pre-flash and the main flash between the two models. That interval is very short and sometimes I can't see it at all.

[egrossman]

I sent my SF 58 back to B&H today. I just couldn't get used to such a large flash on the M9. Truth be told, I'm still getting used to the camera. Coming from a Canon background (5D, 1D, etc.) I would never have dreamed of shooting at 1/15 or 1/30 with a 50mm Summilux at 1600 ISO and getting fantastic results (particularly after cleaned up in LR3).

 

Perhaps the solution for me is to have a secondary body for shots that I simply can't get in available light such as the Ricoh GXR or the new Fuji X1000. The SF58 costs almost as much as some of these cameras anyway!

 

My 2 cents.

 

Erik

Edited December 21, 2010 by egrossman

[menos I M6]

I have not had much occasions these days, to extensively use the SF58 due to much work, but on the few occasions, I used it (especially in close rooms), it finally opens up possibilities in light, the digital M was just not able, to cope before (even with the fastest of lenses).

 

It is for me a fantastic combination, to have the very reliable focussing of the M (especially in low light) and the flash with tilt/swivel head, zoom and diffusor, to shape light, to look natural for shots at medium ISO and even slightly stopped down apertures (f2 and smaller).

 

One could even think about leaving the Noctilux' or Summilux' at home and just go with Summicrons or Elmarits and the SF58 within closed rooms (events with medium ceiling, etc…).

 

I am used to using a Nikon D3 and heavy zooms. The Leica M even with the heaviest of lenses feels light and compact.

With such heavy lenses (90 Cron, Noctilux), putting a SF58 on top makes the combo slightly unwieldy (without grip) - going back to easier to focus, much lighter and more compact slower lenses though is the right combination with the SF58, as you are aiming for a bit more DOF anyway.

 

35 Lux -> 35 Cron ASPH

50 Noctilux -> 50 Lux or even 50 Cron

90 Cron -> 90 Elmarit-M

 

The lighter lenses + flash handle really beautifully.

Only restriction now is, that the SF58 head doesn't turn with the same freedom, as professional Nikon flashes. One could use a Nikon SB900 for such though, which also has much quicker recycling and more output (just in M and A modes, as Leica TTL doesn't work obviously).

 

For such work, the Nikon flash has another advantage - it's UI is a lot more refined and quicker to set, than the clunky Leica flash (no direct access, all functions go over one button, etc…).

 

Oh and that SB900 is cheaper as well ;-)

[mikelevitt]

It happens so fast only Superman could notice it. One has no sense that more than one flash has taken place.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Since this was my #1 question before buying this flash, I took Sean's recommendation at face value and purchased it. I hate visible pre-flash and feel that it always compromises the look of a portrait as you catch your subject just starting to blink. I have the SF24d and don't use it in TTL for this reason.

 

Well, today I received it and the preflash was immediately noticeable to both me and my daughter, who was the subject of the shot. She blinked each time the preflash hit and was slightly blinking in each shot when it was viewed. She could not avoid blinking.

 

IMO this makes the flash worthless in TTL.

 

And if it happens "so fast that only Superman could notice it" I guess that both my daughter and I are superman, because it was frankly obvious to both of us.

 

Shots taken in auto mode look good with no blinking.

 

Anyway, it is a really nice piece of gear otherwise, but I would not recommend it to those who are buying it for the TTL while shooting people. I think it would probably be OK outside for fill flash, but inside it is a guaranteed blink-maker.

 

It's faster than the SF-24d but not enough to make a difference.

 

Mike

[menos I M6]

…

 

And if it happens "so fast that only Superman could notice it" I guess that both my daughter and I are superman, because it was frankly obvious to both of us.

…

It's faster than the SF-24d but not enough to make a difference.

 

Mike

 

… more like Superdaughter and Superdad

 

Mike, the SF58 is as good, as it gets, regarding all options for TTL on a Leica M.

 

Unfortunately, the Metz/ Leica TTL offering for M is not remotely near, the performance of the Nikon TTL system, but then again, on camera TTL flash on a M is just a plain workaround of a problem, not having enough light with a f0.95 Noctilux and ISO2500 + a little pushing

 

I shoot the M8.2 and M6 with pushed BW film in pretty low light these days extensively.

I have to shoot @ f1 quite a lot and still run into low shutter speeds (slower than 1/60).

 

The SF58 comes out, to get a little fill and a little bounce, to not have to shoot ISO 2500 and shaky shutter speeds on peoples facial expressions.

When not using TTL, I would not recommend the SF58, but rather a Nikon flash for the Leica M (SB900 or SB700, if the 900 is too heavy).

These flashes are just ages more accessible, easier to operate and at least as well made as the Metz units - not to mention, less expensive.

[Luke_Miller]

Well, today I received it and the preflash was immediately noticeable to both me and my daughter, who was the subject of the shot. She blinked each time the preflash hit and was slightly blinking in each shot when it was viewed. She could not avoid blinking.

 

Of course this can be a problem with any flash system that uses pre-flashes to calculate flash exposure. When I experience it using my Nikon bodies I employ the FV Lock feature which does the pre-flash and exposure calculation as a separate step. Until I change settings the subsequent exposures occur without any pre-flash.

 

Normally I only experience blinking issues when I am using direct flash (with a diffuser). I rarely see it when bouncing the flash. My theory is that it is the subject looking directly at the flash tube during the pre-flash that triggers the blink reflex.

 

This is born out in my studio experience when I used the Nikon CLS system to control my SB-800s used as main and fill to either side of the subject. My SU-800 controller would send IR control flashes to the SB-800s, which would then fire their pre-flashes and then the main flash. I can't recall ever experiencing a blink problem with that setup. The subject was looking at the camera which did not emit visible flashes and the pre-flashes from the sides did not appear to trigger the blink reflex.

 

 

I haven't used flash enough with my M8.2 to be sure, but so far no blinkers in TTL with either the SF-24D or SF-58 as long as they are bounced.

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[mikelevitt]

… more like Superdaughter and Superdad

 

Mike, the SF58 is as good, as it gets, regarding all options for TTL on a Leica M.

 

Unfortunately, the Metz/ Leica TTL offering for M is not remotely near, the performance of the Nikon TTL system, but then again, on camera TTL flash on a M is just a plain workaround of a problem, not having enough light with a f0.95 Noctilux and ISO2500 + a little pushing

 

I shoot the M8.2 and M6 with pushed BW film in pretty low light these days extensively.

I have to shoot @ f1 quite a lot and still run into low shutter speeds (slower than 1/60).

 

The SF58 comes out, to get a little fill and a little bounce, to not have to shoot ISO 2500 and shaky shutter speeds on peoples facial expressions.

When not using TTL, I would not recommend the SF58, but rather a Nikon flash for the Leica M (SB900 or SB700, if the 900 is too heavy).

These flashes are just ages more accessible, easier to operate and at least as well made as the Metz units - not to mention, less expensive.

 

You are pretty funny! I agree with you that the SF58 is the best available, just wanted to get it in print that I felt that the blinking thing was happening from the pre-flash, since I think a lot of people are using this thread to decide whether to buy or not. That aside, I think the performance is decent, and I like the look and feel of Metz stuff - always have. I used to use the Metz on my R8 and R9 with great results, always felt it was more consistent than Canon - which was my other system at the time.

 

Compared to Nikon? Nothing compares IMO. I am on Canon, but tested Nikon extensively when the new stuff came out as they were trying to get me to switch. I was incredibly impressed with their TTL performance. Unbeatable, IMO, but not enough to get me to switch, as I found I preferred the look of the Canon files even though Nikon had many advantages.

 

I'm wondering if anybody has tried the Pocket Wizard FlexTT5/Mini TT1 radios for Nikon with the M9 and flashes? I have this system for canon and would love to get one for the Nikon - especially if we get HSS in a firmware update in the future.

 

Anyway, thanks all!