wparsonsgisnet Posted December 15, 2009 Share #201 Posted December 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think there's no question that you can train yourself to compensate for any kind of (consistent) shutter lag as long as it ain't too long (and 100ms certainly ain't too long). The ability of the human body to compensate for all kinds of things is remarkable in this respect.... I agree that we can train ourselves to compensate for differing shutter conditions in a camera. I add that I did so right out of the box with the M9. I took dance shots and experienced the EXPECTED results the very first time I used the camera. That is why I think that we must be hearing the shutter when we do this trick that we do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 15, 2009 Posted December 15, 2009 Hi wparsonsgisnet, Take a look here M9 shutter lag?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jonoslack Posted December 15, 2009 Share #202 Posted December 15, 2009 HI Bill So, it must be that I am hearing the shutter during the act of taking the picture. At a 100ms "lag" I have to take 17 inches of movement into account, and the top of the arc is where the dancer has to be. If I am not subject to the effect of different "lags" then hearing the shutter must be the explanation. Excellent . . . and I do agree, it's a case of learning your lag (as it were). The obvious different situation is when you are following an expression on a person, with the shutter half pressed waiting for that 'moment' Then, of course, you don't quite have the same power of anticipation . . . still whether the extra 1/10th second makes a huge difference is moot. I think there's no question that you can train yourself to compensate for any kind of (consistent) shutter lag as long as it ain't too long (and 100ms certainly ain't too long). The ability of the human body to compensate for all kinds of things is remarkable in this respect. for me, consistent is the crucial issue - it's no good if it varies (and of course, with the M9 it doesn't vary). As I said, I'm sure they'll work hard on this and future digital Ms will have shorter shutter lags. No matter what people in this forum say... I'm sure that they will work on it . . . but my impressions suggests that they will have to go to CMOS to really sort it out . . . . and whether that would be worth the candle is a nother moot point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted December 15, 2009 Share #203 Posted December 15, 2009 I'm sure that they will work on it . . . but my impressions suggests that they will have to go to CMOS to really sort it out That might well be the case. I'm not an expert on this, but obviously those top-notch dSLRs that have a faster shutter lag than the M8/M9 are all (not surprisingly) CMOS. and whether that would be worth the candle is a nother moot point. My impression from one of the recent interviews with Stefan Daniel was that Leica is seriously considering to put a CMOS sensor into the next M anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted December 15, 2009 Share #204 Posted December 15, 2009 That might well be the case. I'm not an expert on this, but obviously those top-notch dSLRs that have a faster shutter lag than the M8/M9 are all (not surprisingly) CMOS. My impression from one of the recent interviews with Stefan Daniel was that Leica is seriously considering to put a CMOS sensor into the next M anyway. I was talking to him about this at Solms last week - I'd say that all options are open, and that anything sensible is under consideration. I wouldn't hold your breath though; there was a huge amount of enthusiasm, but not much of a sense of urgency - the M9 was really important and needed, they have earned themselves the space to be a little more considered and leisurely with it's successor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted December 16, 2009 Share #205 Posted December 16, 2009 My feeling is that I do notice a difference between the M8 and the M9 but allways felt the M8 was as responsive as film Ms. I never thought about shutter lah when Iused the M8, but I have started to feel something like that since using the M9. For me the film Ms and M8 felt like the shutter released nearly while I was moving my finger. The M9 feels like I move my finger and then the shutter releases. Still pretty fast and no real problem for me but I really believe that I feel the difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted December 17, 2009 Share #206 Posted December 17, 2009 Whether the issue is called shutter lag or on/off lag, it is a major enough lag that my m8.2 is sitting in a cupboard. I finally missed one shot too many. When I point the camera, I want it to be ready to shoot. Digital M's are not. Less than other digis? Not by a long shot. D700 is instant. And the battery? It is terrible. This is all too bad for such a nice feeling camera with such an austere past. No this is not normal. I only have a M8, and have had four of them since there release, and I can not tell there is any lag from the full release press to the shutter firing.I've also had many M film cameras and I can not tell any difference between the film M's and the M8. Could be you are thinking the second stop is the release and when you push down a little further the shutter fires. that would lead you to think there is a lag. On both the M8 and M9 there are 2 distinct stops and then some movement to the spot where the shutter fires. A slight press of the release turns on the meter, if it is off, and then there is a distinct stop. Just after that first stop there is a second stop that Locks the meter reading, if you are in A mode. Once you go through that second stop you hit a point that the shutter fires and the point where the shutter fires is not the end of the release travel, it will move slightly past the point the shutter fires. Could be the M9 you tested did not have the shutter release switch or the actual shutter release button adjusted properly. If there was any discernible lag in the shutter release of the M9, especially if it was different then the M8, you would of seen at least 3-5 long threads on it on this forum. From what I see you are the only one that has posted this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted December 17, 2009 Share #207 Posted December 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The M8's problem isn't its shutter lag per se... Its problem is the impression of shutter lag it gives to the user. With the M8, I never really know when the image is actually taken: There's simply too much noise, too many shutter mechanical sounds. It simply feels off. I think the M8.2 solved a big part of the problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2009 Share #208 Posted December 17, 2009 The new soft-release function should help a lot, Nenad, and let's hope it will be implemented on the M8 as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2009 Share #209 Posted December 17, 2009 Whether the issue is called shutter lag or on/off lag, it is a major enough lag that my m8.2 is sitting in a cupboard. I finally missed one shot too many. When I point the camera, I want it to be ready to shoot. Digital M's are not. Less than other digis? Not by a long shot. D700 is instant. And the battery? It is terrible. This is all too bad for such a nice feeling camera with such an austere past.Umm.. I guess you are talking about start-up time here, not shutterlag. Start-up delay is about 0.5 seconds, just enough to bring the camera to your eye. I suspect you are waiting for the red light to stop flashing. That is user error.I do not know what the official startup time of the D 700 but I read posts on DPReview complaining about a 2 second startup delay... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted December 17, 2009 Share #210 Posted December 17, 2009 Umm.. I guess you are talking about start-up time here, not shutterlag. Start-up delay is about 0.5 seconds, just enough to bring the camera to your eye. I suspect you are waiting for the red light to stop flashing. That is user error.I do not know what the official startup time of the D 700 but I read posts on DPReview complaining about a 2 second startup delay... I've got a D700, and it's certainly not 2 secs to start-up. The official figures seem to be a startup time of 0.12 secs, and a shutter lag of 40ms. (According to DPI. However, some sites state 0.40ms ,which I don't quite believe.) Whatever the actual times may be, I have not noticed any significant delay in either my D700 or my M8, they are both certainly quick enough for me. If I miss a moment, it's my fault and not the camera's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted December 17, 2009 Share #211 Posted December 17, 2009 The start-up delay of the M8 is really irrelevant, I agree. You can switch it on and then take a picture immediately, at least my finger needs longer to move from the on/off switch to the shutter button. You can also immediately reach the main menu and the quick "set" menu without having to wait for anything. The only thing that doesn't work in an instant is playback - you'll have to wait for maybe two or three seconds. I don't consider this a problem, though. In Michael Kamber's infamous "Iraq field report" he claims the M8 has a start-up time of three seconds. This is so far off the mark that I always wondered why he was saying something that was clearly wrong. Either that or he only used the camera for watching photos, not for taking them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2009 Share #212 Posted December 17, 2009 I've got a D700, and it's certainly not 2 secs to start-up. The official figures seem to be a startup time of 0.12 secs, and a shutter lag of 40ms. (According to DPI. However, some sites state 0.40ms ,which I don't quite believe.) Whatever the actual times may be, I have not noticed any significant delay in either my D700 or my M8, they are both certainly quick enough for me. If I miss a moment, it's my fault and not the camera's. I thought 2 secs a bit long, Nicole. A similar false claim as made for the M8/M9 clearly. I agree with you and Nhabebi that the startup lag on these cameras is clearly so short as to be irrelevant Focussing the M 8/9 takes longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted December 17, 2009 Share #213 Posted December 17, 2009 I suspect some of the 'slow start up' being experienced and blamed for 'missed' shots, may come down to poor technique. I will be the first to put my hand up as guilty! On occasions, I raise the camera to my eye and 'consider' will I take this pic. If yes, I then hit the shutter button only to find the camera has gone to sleep. I don't believe I am alone in this. Reflexively touching the button as I raise the camera to my eye in order to turn it on at that point seems to trigger a "psychological block" that says, "Don't turn it on unless you want to shoot. Save your battery!" Flawed logic I know, but remember we are dealing with the human brain here. A little bit of honesty can help correct some problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted December 18, 2009 Share #214 Posted December 18, 2009 The net effect of this interesting thread on me was this- I compared my M9 with my M7. I can sense the faster response of the M7 shutter, but more so really prefer the smoother feel of the M7. Having the same 1/2 press for exposure lock, it is closest to the M9/M8 of all the film Ms, and one reason I really enjoy shooting the M7 is the shutter feel and response. Now, this in no way mitigates my overall satisfaction with the M9 which is very high, nor do I think I'll miss expressions or other photographic moments as a result. But just as to the shutter feel, the M7 is way better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 18, 2009 Share #215 Posted December 18, 2009 The net effect of this interesting thread on me was this- I compared my M9 with my M7. I can sense the faster response of the M7 shutter, but more so really prefer the smoother feel of the M7. Having the same 1/2 press for exposure lock, it is closest to the M9/M8 of all the film Ms, and one reason I really enjoy shooting the M7 is the shutter feel and response. Now, this in no way mitigates my overall satisfaction with the M9 which is very high, nor do I think I'll miss expressions or other photographic moments as a result. But just as to the shutter feel, the M7 is way better. Me too! Just shooting today with the M7 after a long absence and it just feels so much more responsive than the M9. There's an extra smoothness and effortlessness that's subtle but definitely there. Not sure why they couldn't have gone with the same shutter release set up as the M7. Would have saved them $ etc. Mr Norton? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 18, 2009 Share #216 Posted December 18, 2009 An analog camera has only to release the shutter (and maybe the exposure meter). A digital camera has to power up the sensor as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted January 1, 2010 Share #217 Posted January 1, 2010 I sent an email to Leica yesterday and received a reply from Stefan Daniel himself today. Here's the word: My guess that the difference between the analog Ms and the M8/M9 is due to electronics was right. Most of the time is needed to "refresh" the sensor. According to Mr. Daniel, the shutter lag on the M8 is between 70ms and 80ms while the M9's shutter lag is 100ms because the sensor is bigger. The shutter lag for the analog M models is pretty much the same for all and is between 12ms and 15ms. A tiny detail that I accidentally came across today from Erwin Puts' old review of the M7: The time parallax between pressure of the shutter release button and firing the shutter is 12 milliseconds (12 -18 ms with the M6). This sounds as if due to using electronic means to control the shutter the M7 always has precisely the same lag of 12ms while the lag varies a bit on the purely mechanical film Leicas. Or am I just misinterpreting what Mr. Puts writes? Not that it matters, I'm just curious. Also, not having an M7 myself, I was surprised to read that the M7 has a startup delay (called "warming up cycle" by Puts) of two seconds. I'm surprised nobody in this thread mentioned this so far. I don't think I'd care because I guess you can leave the camera on as long as you don't put it into your bag, but I'm sure people would find that totally unacceptable in the digital age... Interesting article, by the way. There's a pretty detailed description of the differences and similarities between the M7 and the mechanical Ms and of the production process. Was new to me at least. After 15 years with my trusty old M4-P, I'm thinking about complementing it with an M7, that's why I'm suddenly reading stuff like this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 1, 2010 Share #218 Posted January 1, 2010 That startup cycle is only whenthe cmaera has been turned off by the switch around the shutter release. Once the camera is on and the meter times out and you hit the shutter release the camera comes to life instantly, IE turning on the meter and ready to take a shot. In the delayed start up time when turning the camera on with the switch the camera goes through some self checks and reads the film cassette for ISO speed and displays that speed in the Viewfinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted January 1, 2010 Share #219 Posted January 1, 2010 That startup cycle is only whenthe cmaera has been turned off by the switch around the shutter release. Yes, that was my understanding as well. Anyway, I happened to find in my archive the old M7 special edition of LFI which I'm just reading. According to what they write there, this startup delay only applies to the AE mode. If you're shooting manually, you can start instantly, so in that case there's no difference to the M6 or MP. Good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppolla Posted January 1, 2010 Share #220 Posted January 1, 2010 Just out of curiosity...what would be the shutter lag on the Canon 1d or Nikon top level DSLR's? PP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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