samuco Posted September 1, 2009 Share #301 Posted September 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Forgive me if this has been mentioned (there are 290 posts here!), but do people think this hypothetical entry level CLD is going to be manufactured in Germany, or even Portugal? I owned a Leica CL, and I doubt it was ever in Europe before I took it to Spain. IF the camera in the youtube movie is a CLD, we can be certain that it will be made in germany, it is written on the back cheers sam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Hi samuco, Take a look here M9 spotted in Leica Youtube Video.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted September 1, 2009 Share #302 Posted September 1, 2009 Not neccesarily - bodyshells for almost all Leicas, including the M8, are made in Portugal, the shutters in Japan,etc. The camera will be marked Germany if the camera is put in its box there, however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markgay Posted September 1, 2009 Share #303 Posted September 1, 2009 Stephen, your point is well made. Surely for a small, specialist company like Leica Camera, anything non core (defining M and S series as core) would be the result of major outsourcing if not third-party manufacture. OTOH, is there anything to preclude a parallel to the D-Lux4/LX3 success story? Apple does quite from brand extension, and it only goes so far as to claim "Designed in California" (<< Joking! I know it's not comparable) Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 1, 2009 Share #304 Posted September 1, 2009 Nobody knows anything about anything, Jaap. My point was that people are speculating about a low priced "CLD" without appearing to consider the fact that the original CL was made in Japan by Minolta, and was arguably not a Leica at all. I guess I didn't understand all the rules that apply to this exercise. No-not at all, it seems you post was open to various interpretations. Anyway, I doubt that Leica would allow a rebadged type of "Leica DCL" to eat into the lower end of their M sales. They have taken the position that "an entry level camera is a secondhand Leica camera" for many years now, and if they were to climb down, my guess is that they would want something they would not have to share with Panasonic. The CL story was a bit of a sour glass of milk for Leica, as the subsequent CLE was wholly beyond their control and expectations. In the Solmser mind it is interlinked with the M5 fiasco, I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted September 1, 2009 Share #305 Posted September 1, 2009 Not neccesarily - bodyshells for almost all Leicas, including the M8, are made in Portugal, the shutters in Japan,etc. The camera will be marked Germany if the camera is put in its box there, however. That is slightly incorrect. The camera will be labled "Made in Germany" if it is assembled in Germany, even if all parts are made by foreign subsuppliers. It is not assembled in Germany, but only put in the box, they would not sell many cameras before they would be forced to remove any "Made in Germay" inscription. This is in fact the way most complex products are made today, assembled in one contry with pieces from subsuppliers all over the world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 1, 2009 Share #306 Posted September 1, 2009 "In the Solmser mind it is interlinked with the M5 fiasco, I think." Ahh - but is it linked in the Oberkochner (or Salzburger) mind? That's who makes the decisions in Solms, now. I get the impression Rudy Spiller is far more interested in having products that will sell than in maintaining "die alte Leica kultur". This is the "next generation" of Leica, as the video says. I expect 9/9 will reveal something beyond a new digital M and the S2 - what that something (or those somethings) will be I have no idea in detail. I don't rule out a Micro4/3rds camera - in fact, it would not surprise me if the video itself was shot with a "Leica" version of the GH-1 or hypothetical GF-1. Remember Leica trademarked "Leica-cine" or something similar very recently. I do get the impression that a lot of people are desperately trying to read into the video things that aren't there, in hopes of finding 'evidence' for a pet desire. I see: The S2, a garden-variety M8, and an M-digital that is somewhat different from the M8/M8.2 in some details - probably a tad larger in at least one dimension. (And a larger body is in no way a "digital CL".) That's all there is - on-screen, so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted September 1, 2009 Share #307 Posted September 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) - The viewfinder window is much bigger/higher Telyt2003 Will be interesting to see what magnification and framelines the M9 will have Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 1, 2009 Share #308 Posted September 1, 2009 Nobody knows anything about anything, Jaap. My point was that people are speculating about a low priced "CLD" without appearing to consider the fact that the original CL was made in Japan by Minolta, and was arguably not a Leica at all. I guess I didn't understand all the rules that apply to this exercise. Well, the CL was a Leica "outsourced" to then partner Minolta : inspired by that old story, and by the current Leica-Panasonic partnership... and given that it was Herr Daniel that clearly spoke about their will to broaden at the lower end the Leica offering... is rather easy to speculate that the "CLD" could be a made by Panasonic body, manufactured (in some Panasonic factory, somewhere) on Leica specifications... so, a differently engineered product in respect to the Leica-rebranded Lumix (which are nice cameras, btw). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 1, 2009 Share #309 Posted September 1, 2009 That is slightly incorrect. The camera will be labled "Made in Germany" if it is assembled in Germany, even if all parts are made by foreign subsuppliers. It is not assembled in Germany, but only put in the box, they would not sell many cameras before they would be forced to remove any "Made in Germay" inscription. This is in fact the way most complex products are made today, assembled in one contry with pieces from subsuppliers all over the world. MOST of the assembly is done in Portugal, only the final assembly is done in Solms. This seems to include fitting the viewfinder and top plate etc, plus testing and commissioning. Sufficient is done to allow a "Made in Germany" engraving without upsetting the people in Brussels If you ever get the chance, a visit to Solms is an excellent way to spend the day Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted September 1, 2009 Share #310 Posted September 1, 2009 MOST of the assembly is done in Portugal, only the final assembly is done in Solms. This seems to include fitting the viewfinder and top plate etc, plus testing and commissioning. Sufficient is done to allow a "Made in Germany" engraving without upsetting the people in Brussels Well, you prove my point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted September 1, 2009 Share #311 Posted September 1, 2009 I see: The S2, a garden-variety M8, and an M-digital that is somewhat different from the M8/M8.2 in some details - probably a tad larger in at least one dimension. (And a larger body is in no way a "digital CL".) That's all there is - on-screen, so far. this is also what my little birds tell me, except that the 'big' M will be (almost) FX format. in fact, i was told about the release of three cameras on 9/9 (i assign to this a 60% chance of being right). the R replacement? peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 1, 2009 Share #312 Posted September 1, 2009 That is slightly incorrect. The camera will be labled "Made in Germany" if it is assembled in Germany, even if all parts are made by foreign subsuppliers. It is not assembled in Germany, but only put in the box, they would not sell many cameras before they would be forced to remove any "Made in Germay" inscription. This is in fact the way most complex products are made today, assembled in one contry with pieces from subsuppliers all over the world. A bit of hyperbole, I admit.But Leica likes toeing the line. The Digilux2 is marked "Germany"(without the made in, that is noted as well), the IR filters have Germany on them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted September 1, 2009 Share #313 Posted September 1, 2009 The actual manufacturing (including bodyshell - the M7/MP-production-video is a bit misleading) is done by suppliers, mostly in Germany. Portugal assembles the viewfinders/shutter - I'm not sure if they make magnesium die-casts (they did the old zinc-versions, but Mg requires new tools/machines). "Made in Germany" requires "significant" economic value - "putting things in a box" isn't allowed - depite common believe. But of course some has to take legal action. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 1, 2009 Share #314 Posted September 1, 2009 except that the 'big' M will be (almost) FX format. Hey, Peter ... there's a little fish saying it's 1.1x. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 1, 2009 Share #315 Posted September 1, 2009 "Made in Germany" requires "significant" economic value - "putting things in a box" isn't allowed By your standard, Leica shouldn't stamp "Made In Germany" on either the S2 or the M9 ... let's see: Sensor - American Processor - Japanese Shutter - Japanese RAW converter - American Box? ... who knows where the box is made? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 1, 2009 Share #316 Posted September 1, 2009 Well, you prove my point My point is that the vast majority of the work is done in Portugal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted September 1, 2009 Share #317 Posted September 1, 2009 Hey, Peter ... there's a little fish saying it's 1.1x. my birdie says the same. would not make me too happy though. p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted September 1, 2009 Share #318 Posted September 1, 2009 ..., only the final assembly is done in Solms. This seems to include fitting the viewfinder and top plate etc, plus testing and commissioning. Sufficient is done to allow a "Made in Germany" engraving without upsetting the people in Brussels Jaap, sorry, I do not agree. Beside what you mentioned above you forgot to mention first of all that the engineering is done in Germany. Also testing includes final adjustment which is very important for a rangefinder. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 1, 2009 Share #319 Posted September 1, 2009 I am only telling you what we were told in the factory last year. Lots of the parts are made in Germany, many by Leica sister companies in Dr Kaufman's portfolio, but most of the assembly is done in Portugal. It really doesn't matter anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted September 1, 2009 Share #320 Posted September 1, 2009 @sdai The "Made in Germany"-share of the R8 was >70%. When Leica didn't change the internal calculation dramatically, the S2 costs them >10k€ to manufacture, so even the sensor, shutter and maestro-processor combined would hardly create 40% value. The chinese "Leicas" were labeled "Made in China", the Portugese products were labeled "Made in Portugal" - so why shouldn't be the "Made in Germany"-products mostly made in Germany? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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