tgray Posted July 30, 2009 Share #101 Posted July 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Is this camera really marketed at any body who visits forums? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Hi tgray, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
devils-advocate Posted July 30, 2009 Share #102 Posted July 30, 2009 Yes, the prices are breath-taking, but let's pause for a second. In Canada today, new Phase One Gear from one "leading" (crappy) dealer costs this: P45+ on a Phasemiya AFD3 body w/80mm lens: $30,000 28mm lens: $5500 45mm lens: $2,469 120mm lens: $2,850 150mm lens: $3800!!!! Considering how much better built the Leica camera and lenses will be (and that they LEICAs, after all), I actually don't find their pricing that shocking. While the price may be astronomical (when hasn't it been for new MF digital gear??), the price *difference* compared to the competition isn't out of sight. I would be stunend if this system didn't beat the pants off both the HD3-39 and the Phasemiya P45+ in handling, AF, and image quality. That counts for a lot. What does surprise and disappoint me is that Leica hasn't been more aggressive in their pricing to get the camera into more pros' hands faster. If it's really that good, selling the body virtually at cost would have been the right approach. That said, perhaps they have a hard-limit on the number they can produce, and have figured they can sell-out the run at this price. If that's the case, then they've probably priced it right. Only time will tell..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 30, 2009 Share #103 Posted July 30, 2009 ...The retail price for the P40+-back in Germany is about as much as for the S2-body... German prices sound quite expensive then. 1 P45+ and 2 lenses are selling for 15,000 EUR in France right now vs 27,000+ EUR for the 'cheapest' similar S2 kit if i'm not wrong. The former price is a special offer though. Jet setters will go for the S2 i guess. Are you really surprised folks? Special Phase One Offer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted July 30, 2009 Share #104 Posted July 30, 2009 I confess I was quick to ridicule the S2 based on price and the condition of the current economy, and I still have serious doubts, but curiously, as I thought about it over night, I guess I didn't understand what a low level of sales Leica is actually trying to get to. If they really are looking at 1,000 units a year, or something in that range, they might be able to do that. But I don't think the buyers will be typical high-end fashion pros -- they simply don't need it, and make their judgments based on return-on-investment. I suspect the buyers will be well-off amateurs and artists and some specialist pros who are looking for a relatively compact, easy-to-use system that brings exquisite results. There may be enough of those world-wide to sell 1,000 units a year for a while, and maybe 10,000 units over the life of the model. I live on a lake in Minnesota, and this thought was reinforced as I looked out at the lake and saw all those average-looking families going by in their $50,000 and $100,000 and $200,000 power boats, and believe me, there are a lot of them. Power boating is a hobby that's probably less intense than photography, and if they can afford those boats, then an affluent professional who is really involved with photography could afford an S2. So I'm not sure it's the Guy Mancusos of the world who'll be buying these things -- I think it's more like the JAAPs. There's a big "if" here - if this camera shows any of the shortcomings of the early M8...that is, if somebody signs on this forum the weekend that the camera is released, pointing out serious engineering flaws, then I think the system is toast. It better be good. If fact, if I were Leica, I would pre-test the first few hundred models in every way possible, one unit at a time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica Insider Posted July 30, 2009 Share #105 Posted July 30, 2009 In which case you will be under a NDA. and i will not say anything that hasn't been said at photokina, pma or on other public occasions. I am also obviously biased - no question - but so are other people here that just pretend to be independend even though they are just as obviously heavily invested in other systems, which is fine. Leica is not for everybody and the S2 is for even fewer people but when you are active in the Leica forum, why just use it to bash the products? That's why I finally had to say something because I am tired of fake pretenders that only act for their own personal business benefit. I am trying to give all the truly interested Leica fans, which luckily are the majority here, a different perspective on things and hopefully some background information that not everybody has access to. I will only post from time time when I feel there is relevant information available that has been missed in the discussions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted July 30, 2009 Share #106 Posted July 30, 2009 and i will not say anything that hasn't been said at photokina, pma or on other public occasions. I am also obviously biased - no question - but so are other people here that just pretend to be independend even though they are just as obviously heavily invested in other systems, which is fine. Leica is not for everybody and the S2 is for even fewer people but when you are active in the Leica forum, why just use it to bash the products? That's why I finally had to say something because I am tired of fake pretenders that only act for their own personal business benefit. I am trying to give all the truly interested Leica fans, which luckily are the majority here, a different perspective on things and hopefully some background information that not everybody has access to. I will only post from time time when I feel there is relevant information available that has been missed in the discussions. So far (you are a member since April of this year), you haven't given any substantial info whatsoever. Guess, all you might be able to tell is what you and the other boys at Leica are smoking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewittehd Posted July 30, 2009 Share #107 Posted July 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) a serious question: where you there? It was daytime but not a dream. Don't have to be buddy, I use both Leica and Japanese lenses and I think your comment is daydreaming at best, viral marketing at worst, take your pick. Jean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted July 30, 2009 Share #108 Posted July 30, 2009 ...I would remind you that Leica sold about 3500 DMRs, which was even more of a pink elephant.You mean white elephant, I think. 3,500 DMRs is a pathetically low number and it's no wonder that the DMR was discontinued. If the S2 ends up selling only 1,000 units annually — the idea that the target would be 1,000 units in total as someone above has suggested is absurd — this camera would be another disaster for Leica, considering the development costs and also the opportunity costs of not having put these resources into the digital-M or another more sellable camera. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Scratching the Surface© Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewittehd Posted July 30, 2009 Share #109 Posted July 30, 2009 and i will not say anything that hasn't been said at photokina, pma or on other public occasions. I am also obviously biased - no question - but so are other people here that just pretend to be independend even though they are just as obviously heavily invested in other systems, which is fine. Leica is not for everybody and the S2 is for even fewer people but when you are active in the Leica forum, why just use it to bash the products? That's why I finally had to say something because I am tired of fake pretenders that only act for their own personal business benefit. I am trying to give all the truly interested Leica fans, which luckily are the majority here, a different perspective on things and hopefully some background information that not everybody has access to. I will only post from time time when I feel there is relevant information available that has been missed in the discussions. Oopss Fanboy, I missed something out. Yes I was at Photokina. Did you manage to get hold of one of the 20+ Hassys there for trial, or did you have to wait for the available S2? Could you keep your memory card or did you have to give it in? Could you get past the lines at both Nikon and Canon? The best exhibit at Leica were the prints of plain old film. Leica is not for everybody???????????? Get down to earth, it is a camera and we should take pictures with it, period. Pretending you will take better pictures because the gear costs 20000+ upwards is just viral marketing as I said before. Jean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 30, 2009 Share #110 Posted July 30, 2009 You mean white elephant, I think. 3,500 DMRs is a pathetically low number and it's no wonder that the DMR was discontinued. If the S2 ends up selling only 1,000 units annually — the idea that the target would be 1,000 units in total as someone above has suggested is absurd — this camera would be another disaster for Leica, considering the development costs and also the opportunity costs of not having put these resources into the digital-M or another more sellable camera. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Scratching the Surface© It's funny that people who have never used a DMR call it a white elephant... hahahaha. Sorry there were a limited number that were produced and Leica sold the entire production run. Revisionism is never very good... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted July 30, 2009 Share #111 Posted July 30, 2009 Sorry, nothing really new here. The prices are in the range as announced (not even hitting the top of the range), the image quality still needs to be proven. Assuming the quality is according to the price level - who is going to buy this camera? Obviously people, who need a quality level above the D3 or EOS1. Will they get it somewhere else? I doubt it, since the bottleneck typically is the optics, not the sensor. Even an advanced digital back will not compensate for the lower resolution of typcial medium format lenses. Quoting from the Zeiss homepage (photo optics, Miscellaneous FAQ: 7. Do 35 mm lenses have a higher resolving power than medium and large format lenses? Our tests using real lenses, real cameras, real film and standard exposure conditions returned the following results: * 35 mm ZM lenses achieve up to 400 line pairs/mm on film. With ZF lenses we achieved about 300 lp/mm. * medium format lenses from Carl Zeiss for Hasselblad achieve up to 280 (250 mm Superachromat f5..6) * large format lenses from Carl Zeiss achieve up to 160 (75 mm Biogon f/4.5) For those, who need this image quality, a new system, where the optics is truly matched to a MF sensor, must be intriguing I wish the S2 to be a success, but I never planned to buy one. I'm happy with my M3, M6 and M8. Maybe there lies my only issue with the S2 concept so far - it confines one to the tunnel vision of a SLR Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted July 30, 2009 Share #112 Posted July 30, 2009 You mean white elephant, I think. 3,500 DMRs is a pathetically low number and it's no wonder that the DMR was discontinued. If the S2 ends up selling only 1,000 units annually — the idea that the target would be 1,000 units in total as someone above has suggested is absurd — this camera would be another disaster for Leica, considering the development costs and also the opportunity costs of not having put these resources into the digital-M or another more sellable camera. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Scratching the Surface© As was stated - they sold the entire run. The files are probably some of the better files I have seen out there and those who use it, have produced some great work with it. Let's see what kind of disaster awaits Leica, shall we? I dont know why anyone is remotely surprised at the pricing on this. There are high end demographics that lease & rent this type of gear, pros and enthusiasts alike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted July 30, 2009 Share #113 Posted July 30, 2009 Seriously, what the hell did people THINK it was going to cost? $5k? Find me another weatherproof autofocus MF digital the size of a D3 for less. I see people on this thread bitching about the price who bought the new Noctilux for a truly insane price. This is a case of sour grapes for all the dentists and Junior Vice Presidents that Leica has pandered to for the past 5 years. Folks, if it costs too much you probably don't need it afterall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 30, 2009 Share #114 Posted July 30, 2009 It's funny that people who have never used a DMR call it a white elephant... hahahaha. Sorry there were a limited number that were produced and Leica sold the entire production run. Revisionism is never very good... Hear, hear, Conrad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 30, 2009 Share #115 Posted July 30, 2009 Why do people on this forum have a down on Porsche's and dentists? Wilson PS I am not a dentist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_tanaka Posted July 30, 2009 Share #116 Posted July 30, 2009 Meanwhile in other news today... Jenoptik terminates business with mid format cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted July 30, 2009 Share #117 Posted July 30, 2009 Sorry, nothing really new here. The prices are in the range as announced (not even hitting the top), the image quality still needs to be proven. Assuming the quality is according to the price level - who is going to buy this camera? Obviously people, who need a quality level above the D3 or EOS1. Will they get it somewhere else? I doubt it, since the bottleneck typically is the optics, not the sensor. Even an advanced digital back will not compensate for the lower resolution of typcial medium format lenses. Quoting from the Zeiss homepage (photo optics, Miscellaneous FAQ: 7. Do 35 mm lenses have a higher resolving power than medium and large format lenses? Our tests using real lenses, real cameras, real film and standard exposure conditions returned the following results: * 35 mm ZM lenses achieve up to 400 line pairs/mm on film. With ZF lenses we achieved about 300 lp/mm. * medium format lenses from Carl Zeiss for Hasselblad achieve up to 280 (250 mm Superachromat f5..6) * large format lenses from Carl Zeiss achieve up to 160 (75 mm Biogon f/4.5) For those, who need this image quality, a new system, where the optics is truly matched to a MF sensor, must be intriguing I wish the S2 to be a success, but I never planned to buy one. I'm happy with my M3, M6 and M8. Maybe there lies my only issue with the S2 concept so far - it confines one to the tunnel vision of a SLR Stefan The part of your quote which I highlighted (bold) proofs that you have no clue how good MF lenses really are. This is not about the typical comparison between 35mm Leica and Non-Leica lenses. MF is a completely different ballgame. True, the price is not a surprise. Frankly it's about $1000 less than I guessed (on pdm.com). MF equipment is expensive but for a company who wants to break into a new market (and secure a future for itself), it's not the smartest move to be the most expensive, new and unproven (quality, reliability and pro service level support!!!) guy on the block. I don't think any pro will switch systems, software and workflow for the S2. Bottomline is the S2 is a tweener product and should have been positioned as that. It could have been a valuable option for the DSLR (35mm) user who wants more from his files and the Pro who doesn't need to go full blown MF (with studio work in mind) but sees a benefit in its other qualities (like waterproof, ease of use etc.). By positioning the price the way Leica did, they just killed the new market area they created when announcing the S2 a year ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted July 30, 2009 Share #118 Posted July 30, 2009 I guess Zeiss knows about the resolution of MF lenses. As far I recall they have developed a lens or two. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted July 30, 2009 Share #119 Posted July 30, 2009 I guess Zeiss knows about the resolution of MF lenses. As far I recall they have developed a lens or two. Stefan You're forgetting the AA filter in 35mm digital cameras. That's the true detail killer. Guess, that happens when just regurgitating a companies (self) promotional research findings. (By no means I am inclining that Zeiss lenses are bad or that the company doesn't know what they are doing. Far from that but as with all data like that, one's got to keep the entire picture in mind or the result will be misleading.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted July 30, 2009 Share #120 Posted July 30, 2009 Problem as I see it is one has to buy into a complete system brand new. Whilst the M8 (or D3X, MkIII, DMR, and so on) were relatively expensive bodies many users could justify because of the access to legacy lenses. Same can be said for Hasselblad and Mamiya/Phase MF systems. When I purchased my M8 I had already all the lenses I needed which had been purchased used during the film days at bargain prices (mint 24 w/finder for $1225 for example). Same with my D3 (though even the latest greatest from them the 14-24 set me back $1300 used). It's rough out there for pros right now. Ad budgets have been slashed and most heavy duty pros aren't pixel peepers - they just want gear that works and the support behind it. Like others have said here the rental houses will have to get on board. Leica must cut them deals or suffer the consequences. Most "art" photographers I know use MF film (myself included). Figure in the price of film and scanning vs MF digital and it's kind of a no-brainer (plus with film one gets full frame and lots of res). Not sure what world Kaufmann lives in (the one the Madoffs inhabited perhaps?) but it's not the one most pro photographers are in these days. Yes, there will be a few millionaires that will pick these up, but not as many as one might think. For one thing, it's not just the cost of the camera, but one's whole computer system has to be upgraded if coming from say a 10-12 mp system. It's too much camera for most. I just really hope this doesn't affect the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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