S2 under pricing pressure

[sdai]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hassy is using Kodak 6um sensors in their upcoming 50 and 60 MP backs, not Dalsa. Unfortunately, the Dalsa 6um tech only allows for a 60 second max exposure time. The S2 doesn't have this limitation.

 

The 50MP Hassy uses a Kodak sensor but they'll switch to DALSA for the 60MP full frame (actually 40.2 x 53.7) sensor.

 

All 3 high end MFDB companies are in DALSA camp now. They may continue to use Kodak sensors for some very specific reasons but all flagship models are DALSA chipped from now on.

 

The Kodak sensor may have some advantage in long exposure on paper but who knows how the S2 will perform till we actually see (for sure).

[sdai]

On a side note, it would never be too late for Leica to correct their mistake, modularize the S system, introduce a detachable back for the S mount, open the interface to Phase, Leaf et al. They can focus on making money from the lenses, and there are tons of it.

 

If they do so, they'll be thousands, if not tens of thousands of defectors from other camps.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[AlanG]

I believe that the benefits offered by an integrated solution like the S2 outweigh the disadvantages (for me and others I know). I don't use a tech camera and probably never will. Very few of my customers use a tech camera and probably never will. In fact, What percentage of photographers actually use a tech camera now? 5%? 10%?

 

David

 

Wide angle photogaphy is pretty limited with MF DSLRs. A lot of MF architectural shooters use special wide angle cameras that I'm generically lumping in with small view cameas as "tech" cameras. Wide angle cameras include Sinar Artec, Cambo DS, Alpa, Linhof Techno, Silvestri and others. Then many still life shooters - food, jewelry, products, etc. are likely to use small precision view cameras from Linhof, Rollei, Sinar, Arca Swiss, Cambo and others. At one time most commercial photographers used view cameras at least occassionally.

 

In my opinion, lens plane adjustments and perspective controls are basic tools for good commercial photography. (When I was in school, learning how to use a 4x5 was one of the first things we did.) I think once you get used to having lens movements it is hard to get by without them. Today I used my 45mm TS-E lens tilted on two shots in order to minimize the depth of field and concentrate attention to a narrow plane of focus. It was easy to do this on a DSLR (especially checking focus via magnified live view) and it would be more work to do this with an MF view camera. But I really couldn't tilt the 45mm lens enough to get as strong an effect as I wanted. Getting a stronger effect would have been a piece of cake with a 4x5 view camera. My 115mm Grandagon view camera lens will almost cover 8x10 so it can do incredible amounts of tilts and shifts on 4x5. Other longer lenses I have can do more.

 

So there is no way I would move to an MF system unless I could get the wide angle performance and lens/back movements that I want. But of course lots of people don't feel this way.

Edited April 29, 2009 by AlanG

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy,

 

The S2 sensor is essentially THE SAME SIZE as the P30+ you just got today. Are you insinuating that your digital back is a "tweener" back?

 

And I believe that the S2 is now directly comparable to the newly leaked/announced P40+. Same size, same pixel pitch, same resolution, same ISO range, same pixel-binning ability. And, while the P30+ only cost you X dollars, the P40+ carries a $20K price tag for a back only. Or, do you think that the P40+ and P1 645 body should only cost a little more than a D3x because the sensor is only 58% larger?!

 

Curious double standard here. If the S2 proves to be smaller, lighter, faster, more ergonomic, more rugged/weather-proof, with superior optics and dual shutter options (and longer exposure times than 60 secs) ...at the same exact (or a little better) quality as this new P40+, where is the problem? And what would make the digital back reasonable at $20K and the S2 a no-go at the same price?

 

Daivd

 

David your arguing with the wrong guy and out of friendship I am walking out of this conversation, your sounding like a used car salesman than a Leica dealer and i want no part of this. If you want to bow to the golden toilet please do so. Enough said on this subject because i have way to many arguing points that you don't actually even acknowledge at all or even want to consider as valid.

[wildlightphoto]

In the widely circulated WEBB-TV interview, Maike Harberts states that the S2 will be upgradeable. Whether this happens in the production models and what form the hypothetical upgradeability takes are yet to be seen, but it's clear that Leica has been at least thinking in this direction.

[Jack MacDonough]

Upgrade to me means S3, S4 etc which is fine by me.

[carstenw]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Upgrade to me means S3, S4 etc which is fine by me.

The question is what it means to Leica. It may mean as little as firmware updates, or as much as new sensors. We will have to wait and see, since no specific promises have been made.

[Gentleman Villain]

At one time most commercial photographers used view cameras at least occassionally.

 

Would I be going out on a limb to say that 15 years ago a person wasn't considered a commercial photographer unless he shot 4x5? 35mm was for PJ, sports and birthday parties. Heck, even wedding photographers had enough self respect to stay away from 35mm. Now, the entire industry revolves around 35mm DSLRs. WTF happened? Sometimes I feel like we're living in the twilight zone.

 

In my opinion, lens plane adjustments and perspective controls are basic tools for good commercial photography. (When I was in school, learning how to use a 4x5 was one of the first things we did.)

 

I agree1000% Does that make us dinosaurs? Seriously, has the ability to control the focal plane/perspective via movements become a dying art?

 

 

So there is no way I would move to an MF system unless I could get the wide angle performance and lens/back movements that I want. But of course lots of people don't feel this way.

 

If Leica finds a way to provide real perspective control with the S system....Or by using S lenses on a future R system....That would be impressive.. Right now the bottom line is that the future S&R systems may be brilliant but still point-n-shoot

 

D Farkas is right though....the majority of photographers aren't going to demand perspective control. Maybe it's too small of a market to even worry about anymore...just a few of us dinosaurs left around

[stunsworth]

Maybe it's too small of a market to even worry about anymore...just a few of us dinosaurs left around

 

In all my years of photography I've only ever seem one person using a T&S lens. I'm not saying that they aren't important for those that need them, but that number does indeed seem to be very, very small.

 

If people are happy to use a product like DXO to correct problems caused by lens issues - pin-cushioning, barelling etc., aren't they also happy to use Photoshop to correct perspective issues? The effect of that would be to reduce the demand for perspective control even further.

 

One other question, the S2 is weather proofed, how do the other MF backs cope in adverse weather conditions? Do many people use Phase One backs in rain or snow?

[Gentleman Villain]

 

If people are happy to use a product like DXO to correct problems caused by lens issues - pin-cushioning, barelling etc., aren't they also happy to use Photoshop to correct perspective issues? The effect of that would be to reduce the demand for perspective control even further.

 

 

Yeah you're right....and they'll also have no idea how crappy it looks compared to what it would look like to do things in-camera the correct way. But you're right...people will continue to use software because it's easier and less expensive. Kinda like eating at McDonalds

[AlanG]

If people are happy to use a product like DXO to correct problems caused by lens issues - pin-cushioning, barelling etc., aren't they also happy to use Photoshop to correct perspective issues? The effect of that would be to reduce the demand for perspective control even further.

 

 

As a matter of fact, DXO also has some of the best perspective adjustments of any software program. But if you wish to use software to correct for extreme perspective, you'll have to shoot wider. So in the case of the S2, you might be reducing the image from a 37 megapixel area to a 20-30 megapixel area. And if you've sold your clients on MF for the best quality, it seems a shame to reduce it. You can use a pano head, angle the camera up, shoot two or more frames with a longer lens, stitch and adjust. I do this pretty often. But it is time consuming if you have a lot of subjects to photograph. And you may as well use 35mm if you are going to stitch.

 

There's a pretty good reason that Canon is coming out with a 17mm TS-E. Without it, you'd have to angle up with a 14 or 12mm (Sigma 12-24 being the only choice for 12,) adjust the image in software and crop.

 

Additionally, the tilt and swing control is a different story. You can use it to intersect a plane to isolate an object or to place a sharp plane through an important area of a subject. I think there is some demand for this in MF or Hasselblad would not be offering the T/S adapter and there wouldn't be so many small view cameras on the market.

 

Here's a link to an image of the Obama inauguration by David Burnett. He's probably the only major news photographer who uses 4x5 for some of his news, pj and illustration work.

 

Barack Obama | 0 | | David Burnett -- Photojournalist

 

(On a side not of the above photo. it is probably ok to shoot a news photo where the lens is manipulated to throw things out of focus. But if you shot everything sharp and then blurred sections with software, you might get fired. Why is that?)

 

I do agree that in some ways this might be a dying art. And the fact that clients receive digital files instead of film means they may not have any idea what format you used or care. But for a lot of photographers, the move to MF is not just about getting more resolution. It's about having more control of the image.

Edited April 29, 2009 by AlanG

[dfarkas]

David your arguing with the wrong guy and out of friendship I am walking out of this conversation, your sounding like a used car salesman than a Leica dealer and i want no part of this. If you want to bow to the golden toilet please do so. Enough said on this subject because i have way to many arguing points that you don't actually even acknowledge at all or even want to consider as valid.

 

Guy,

 

I'm very sorry if you've taken my points as 1) arguing, 2) an attack on you, or 3) a used car salesman's pitch. This was not my intention.

 

I certainly would never intend to offend, insult, or put you down in any way. I thought we were just having a friendly, meaningful discussion about cameras here. I, as well as many others on this forum, respect the perspective that you bring to the table based on your many years of professional experience. But, I will continue to express my opinions and perspective on the S2 and where I believe it fits into the market, based on my many years of experience in this industry (I've been involved with professional digital imaging for 18 years).

 

I am very close to Leica on the S2. I've spent many, many hours speaking directly with product managers and company leadership about the system, its place in the market, pro-level support, etc. In addition to Leica, I'm also a dealer for Nikon, Canon, and Mamiya. I personally have no interest in the DL28 or DL33. These are "real" MF cameras that I could sell today. I have very little interest in the D3x or 1DsIII for my personal use, even though I've always liked Nikons and have used D2x, D300, and D3 extensively in the past. I'm not promoting these products, because I truly believe that the S2 is the camera that I have been looking and waiting for, personally. This ins't some seedy sales pitch. I could be selling DL33 kits or D3x cameras today, but I would rather advise my customers to wait several months for the S2. I don't think that is dishonest. On the contrary, I'm giving up sales today for what I truly believe will be a far superior option.

 

I don't doubt your satisfaction with your own Phase One system. I don't doubt the quality you are able to get out of it. Phase One, Leaf, Sinar, and Hasselblad all make excellent products. There are many areas that the S2 is a better option for the majority of photographers. For those cases where view cameras are required and speed, weather-sealing, etc. are not, a traditional MFD back would indeed be the better option. So, yes, I acknowledge this. I, personally, as a photographer, would benefit more from the S2 than a separate back. I have also spent many quality hours talking on the phone with my customers and potential customers interested in the S2. Most, if not all, feel the same way I do.

 

As has been said countless times before, we will have to wait to see what the S2 can do in the real world to make a final judgment. In the meantime, open discussion is a good thing and I hope that we can all continue to contribute in a polite, respectful and constructive manner.

 

Again, I'm sorry if my genuine enthusiasm came across as disrespectful or argumentative.

 

David

[t024484]

I'd eat a cockroach to post in the S2 forum again, but hey, since Leica doesn't keep their words on the R10, I figure that I don't need to keep what I've said on a Internet forum either.

 

The P40+ sports a 16 bits A/D converter and the S2 only has 14 bit ... that's the difference between a real MFDB and a high end 35mm DSLR. That should be reflected in their pricing according IMO

 

There is no sensor around to my knowledge with a dynamic range exceeding 12 stops, or 72 dB.

For this, a 12 bit convertor would be enough.

To eliminate small errors in 12 bit converters, the use of a 14 bit converter seems to be the right kind of overkill, although none of these have the full 14 bit dynamic range but that is O.K.

Using a 16 bit converter is a total waste of money, with the lower 4 bits producing nothing but noise, not contributing in any way to a better image.

 

Hans

[c6gowin]

Personally, I find the discussion in this thread very beneficial. All of the opions, no matter how different, are pertinent to the discussion because they are based on a wide range of personal experiences and beliefs. I find it helpful to read the varying opinions, sort through them, and contemplate my next camera (or system) purchase. I get to learn from other peoples experience and see how it fits with my own experience and where I want to go next with my photography.

 

Based on what I know now, the S2 is the camera I want. However, I will continue to read everything I can about it and it's competitors until the price and other details (e.g., image samples, warranty, etc.) are disclosed. I have the luxury of being able to wait and see.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy,

 

I'm very sorry if you've taken my points as 1) arguing, 2) an attack on you, or 3) a used car salesman's pitch. This was not my intention.

 

I certainly would never intend to offend, insult, or put you down in any way. I thought we were just having a friendly, meaningful discussion about cameras here. I, as well as many others on this forum, respect the perspective that you bring to the table based on your many years of professional experience. But, I will continue to express my opinions and perspective on the S2 and where I believe it fits into the market, based on my many years of experience in this industry (I've been involved with professional digital imaging for 18 years).

 

I am very close to Leica on the S2. I've spent many, many hours speaking directly with product managers and company leadership about the system, its place in the market, pro-level support, etc. In addition to Leica, I'm also a dealer for Nikon, Canon, and Mamiya. I personally have no interest in the DL28 or DL33. These are "real" MF cameras that I could sell today. I have very little interest in the D3x or 1DsIII for my personal use, even though I've always liked Nikons and have used D2x, D300, and D3 extensively in the past. I'm not promoting these products, because I truly believe that the S2 is the camera that I have been looking and waiting for, personally. This ins't some seedy sales pitch. I could be selling DL33 kits or D3x cameras today, but I would rather advise my customers to wait several months for the S2. I don't think that is dishonest. On the contrary, I'm giving up sales today for what I truly believe will be a far superior option.

 

I don't doubt your satisfaction with your own Phase One system. I don't doubt the quality you are able to get out of it. Phase One, Leaf, Sinar, and Hasselblad all make excellent products. There are many areas that the S2 is a better option for the majority of photographers. For those cases where view cameras are required and speed, weather-sealing, etc. are not, a traditional MFD back would indeed be the better option. So, yes, I acknowledge this. I, personally, as a photographer, would benefit more from the S2 than a separate back. I have also spent many quality hours talking on the phone with my customers and potential customers interested in the S2. Most, if not all, feel the same way I do.

 

As has been said countless times before, we will have to wait to see what the S2 can do in the real world to make a final judgment. In the meantime, open discussion is a good thing and I hope that we can all continue to contribute in a polite, respectful and constructive manner.

 

Again, I'm sorry if my genuine enthusiasm came across as disrespectful or argumentative.

 

David

 

 

No worries . I feel the same way about many things as well and the S2 will be nice but I think MF shooters are being misrepresented here as well. Those numbers are high on switching backs out and the use of tech camera's and the ability more than anything to replace a faulty part on the spot with a quick and cheap backup. David what is not being said here is where is the back for this . The only true backup is another S2 and that we know is expensive alternate. Sure when the R10 comes but that is way down the line but lets be honest here I can have a AFD body for 400 dollars to save the day on the spot or a cheap 4k P21 back to save the day and heck I could even have a extra P30+ back used for maybe 8k. Many choices here and that is the point, the S2 has no backup for it's lenses that is CURRENTLY on the books coming. R10 is something that is promised , well we all heard that before from many companies including Phase. Obviously the Phase One body is a old design and needs the update , hell I am the first one line screaming that call. But we truly don't know some of the claims on build, AF and all that stuff until it all can be tested . Also by the time the S2 is here , my bet there will be a new redesigned body for Phase backs. All we can go by is what is on paper and as a shooter i have to deal with what is real and in my hands .

I think we are forgetting this and I held the S2 as well and liked it but there is so much more involved here than just putting out a product than the product itself. For some I agree maybe the best thing coming since they invented the wheel and makes a lot of sense to them. For many as well it brings something to the table that fell a dollar short. The point is in all of this is let it sell itself, if it is good and hits all the numbers that folks care about than great but it has a load of mojo to prove to the Pro's out here and it is not just the camera but everything that supports it. As I said i would not even consider buying this until at least 4 or 5 lenses are on the market and a lot of accessories that go with it. So for a lot of folks this is not a buy on launch day. This is not a M8 or a DMR that already had most of the parts already in place. This part is another area that get's sidestepped. Now as you just admitted to everyone here and the issue why I did not want to argue with you was you sell other gear and in essence you are hurting yourself on what you can sell today. Hope you are catching my drift here and i will not get into this anymore but my comments are and concern is this area.

[sdai]

There is no sensor around to my knowledge with a dynamic range exceeding 12 stops, or 72 dB.

For this, a 12 bit convertor would be enough.

To eliminate small errors in 12 bit converters, the use of a 14 bit converter seems to be the right kind of overkill, although none of these have the full 14 bit dynamic range but that is O.K.

Using a 16 bit converter is a total waste of money, with the lower 4 bits producing nothing but noise, not contributing in any way to a better image.

 

2^16=65536, 2^14=16384, 65536/16384=4

 

Greater bit depth directly translates into greater resolution, greater bit depth means finer tonal gradations between pure black and pure white.

 

By the way, what waste of money?

 

There's no pricing differences between a 14 bit and a 16 bit A/D converter, it's all under 10 bucks each.

 

Of course, if you go by 14 bit there is much less data to crunch so the camera will respond faster. IMO that's the true reason why Leica adopts 14 bit A/D for the S2. Just exactly why went for 8 bit in the M8.

 

The "Maestro" DSP based on Fujitsu's Milbeaut platform simply isn't powerful enough. Sigma SD14's DSP is based on the same chip too ... no one can endorse it as a fast machine.

[markowich]

[totally agreed. the nikon D3x with super AF.....costs 8000.-USD. the S2 sensor is slightly larger, everything else in the S2 is inferior. so why shold it cost more? granted, the leica lenses will most likely be better than the nikon lenses, so they have a right to be more expensive. but not the camera.

peter

 

QUOTE=guy_mancuso;886780]David your arguing with the wrong guy and out of friendship I am walking out of this conversation, your sounding like a used car salesman than a Leica dealer and i want no part of this. If you want to bow to the golden toilet please do so. Enough said on this subject because i have way to many arguing points that you don't actually even acknowledge at all or even want to consider as valid.

[sdai]

totally agreed. the nikon D3x with super AF.....costs 8000.-USD. the S2 sensor is slightly larger, everything else in the S2 is inferior. so why shold it cost more? granted, the leica lenses will most likely be better than the nikon lenses, so they have a right to be more expensive. but not the camera.

 

If I were the chief of Nikon, I'm gonna double, no, triple or quadruple what Leica offers to Peter Karbe and develop a premium lineup of optics. But hey, Nikon isn't all that bad, it's only different corporate culture and business philosophy.

 

I hate to say this but Leica really should put more focuses on optics, by refusing to build lenses for other mounts, they may sell hundreds or thousands more cameras but in the mean time, they lose hundreds of thousands, or perhaps millions of sales of lenses.

[stunsworth]

The "Maestro" DSP based on Fujitsu's Milbeaut platform simply isn't powerful enough...

 

For what? I'm no expert, but I'd expect Leica to know what they are doing.

 

We are talking about a camera that'd not been released or reviewed yet aren't we?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[paulmoore]

If I were the chief of Nikon, I'm gonna double, no, triple or quadruple what Leica offers to Peter Karbe and develop a premium lineup of optics. But hey, Nikon isn't all that bad, it's only different corporate culture and business philosophy.

 

I hate to say this but Leica really should put more focuses on optics, by refusing to build lenses for other mounts, they may sell hundreds or thousands more cameras but in the mean time, they lose hundreds of thousands, or perhaps millions of sales of lenses.

 

I think in this digital age optics and cameras are best when designed as a closed system..the optics of the S2 are designed and manufactured for the S2 camera, and it is with this camera that the premium results will be had. smart move.