There is NO "Digital Rangefinder Experience"

[jaapv]

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As a camera...

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[SrMi]

30 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, it is, and more versatile, than the M EV1

You don't buy Leica for the versatility buy for the shooting experience and IQ.

[jaapv]

Precisely. But with the EV1 many potential new users won't, as there is plenty of competition in that segment. Like "rangefinder style" cameras.

[setuporg]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

I do not believe that a technical opinion uses adjectives such as 'stupid,' 'fake,' 'ugly,' etc.

You dug yourself a hole with the initial post, and there is no way out :).

Where technology meets art, the terms of art crops over!  Granted, a day after that doesn’t seem so self-evident.

[mujk]

I have to admit that I don't really see any big reason for this thread. Of course there is no digital rangefinder experience because no current Leica or other brand camera has a digital rangefinder. However, constructing a digital rangefinder is quite possible and this has been discussed in other threads.

[IkarusJohn]

I don’t understand  the opening proposition.  What is a “digital rangefinder experience”?  This looks like a strawman to me, or “clickbait” in internet speak.

I have optical rangefinders in my M cameras, and two of those are digital.  I hardly see that as an abomination.  I also have an electronic rangefinder I use on the golf course, and it’s very good - I think it uses a low power laser (never bothered to check).  The EVF used in cameras isn’t a “rangefinder”, it’s an electronic viewfinder.  So, what is the issue?  I’m not being obtuse - it would be good to understand the topic.

As a more interesting question, hopefully stimulating more informative and productive discussion, is there a way to improve focusing manual lenses in an M camera, whether optical or electronic?  Both the current optical rangefinder and the EVF (whether in the Visoflex or the M EV1) have challenges.  That discussion has been done to death.  So, what’s the solution?

The ever helpful and charming Stefan Daniel commented that Leica is revising the rangefinder, and that is sure to be interesting.  I have no idea what he meant, but I much prefer the revised rangefinder in my M10-D (with improved “eye relief”) over my M9 based Monochrom; but my uncluttered M-A viewfinder is also fantastically fresh.  The fundamental limitations of the optical rangefinder remain - focusing accuracy challenging for longer lenses, focusing limited to the central spot, poor framing, wide angles limited to 28mm, all meaning that external viewfinders are needed, whether optical or electronic.  These are facts, leaving the current optical system “perfect” only between 28mm and 50mm.  Everything beyond those limits is clunky, or insufficiently accurate.

These limitations of electronic viewfinders has also been discussed at length, with focus peaking and magnification being “problematic”.  With the SL and Visoflex with M lenses, I’ve got into the habit of just assessing focus from the overall image, with varying success.

So what’s the solution?

I’ve used a rangefinder since the late 1960s (with a fixed lens) and SLRs since the late 1970s, and Hasselblad since the 1990s. The hardest to focus were unquestionably the Hasselblad 503cx and SWC with their frosted focusing screens, but doable.  The split image fresnel screen of the SLRs wasn’t bad, but could only really work wide open (I never saw the point of the stop-down depth of field button as everything went dark).  The best out of 8 cameras over that 30 year period (yes, only 8!) was the F5 with its movable focal point and focus confirmation.  The absolute worst for focal accuracy was the lovely little Minox, with no focusing aid at all (I rather miss that camera).

So what’s will Leica provide?  An electronic enhancement for the optical rangefinder in the M12, retaining the plain view through the viewfinder?  That might be too radical, and increasing the field of view challenging.  Certainly, the M EV2, if there is one, needs something quicker than magnification and way more accurate than the frankly hopeless focus peaking.

It’s a challenge, but one thing is certain for me - I will continue to use manual focus lenses in preference to AF, and I hope Leica finds a solution.  No one else has.

Sorry for the long post - I’ve just woken up …

[RF’sDelight]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb jaapv:

That only confirms my opinion of marketing speak. 

Which is…? 😁 

»The Easiest Way to Enter the Legendary M-System«
Of course, marketing emphasizes everything that seems helpful. For me, it's just interesting to observe how the absolute uniqueness of a Leica M camera—which came with a rangefinder mechanism for 75 years and has been praised for it for 75 years—is now being rhetorically rephrased by Leica as an option in some sort of M photography experience.

[adan]

10 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Whether or not you meant me, I acknowledge the truth in that!🙂

Not at all a comment on you - just expanding your nice insight, from the specific to the general!

[jaapv]

43 minutes ago, RF’sDelight said:

Which is…? 😁

Negative😵‍💫

[adan]

59 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Sorry for the long post - I’ve just woken up …

"I have made this [letter] longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter." - Blaise Pascal, but attributed to others as well (including Mark Twain).

You are in good company! 👍

[IkarusJohn]

Churchill also used the phrase.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

It’s just a camera. The rangefinder is not going away.

Leica have seen other cameras used with M lenses and wants a bit more of that market. That’s all. This all reminds me of when the M8 was announced and the NIMBY’s complained that a digital M was sacrilege.

Rather than start yet another hate thread on this camera I suggest you all go home, have a whiskey and sit quietly in a dark corner stroking gently an M6, while repeating “they won’t take away my rangefinder”.

So much vitriol over an inanimate object.

Gordon

[pgk]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

As a more interesting question, hopefully stimulating more informative and productive discussion, is there a way to improve focusing manual lenses in an M camera, whether optical or electronic?  Both the current optical rangefinder and the EVF (whether in the Visoflex or the M EV1) have challenges.  That discussion has been done to death.  So, what’s the solution?

I think that you need to add in the dimension of time. All existing systems for manual focus lenses work well enough. Its really about the speed of manual focusing. Combine this with accuracy and we are asking a lot. I would say that AF systems are highly capable and this is indeed true - to a certain extent.

Perhaps it might be worth drawing up a set of comparisons to illustrate what camera type does what best?

I'd start by saying that intelligently used autofocus with all its modern aids is pretty good. Generally accuracy is high although I still find that some aspects can be rather less than perfect (ultra wide AF is often not as absolutely precise as might be hoped.

Leica M manual focus wide lenses used with rangefinders can be very accurate and surprisingly quick to focus precisely - given suitable subject matter which lends itself to coincident rangefinder focusing and the photographer has good eyesight with high contrat discrimination and good acuity.

For absolute accuracy EVF using digital zooming can be excellent, but it isn't fast. I use this a lot but its not a quick way of focusing. So whilst an M-EV1 will be highly capable of precise focus, the time taken to achieve this will be potentially longer than using a rangefinder - its a trade off, a compromise ....

And so on.

My point being that we have plenty of systems/mechanisms all of which have their strengths and weaknesses. Trying to 'upgrade' these - improve manual focusing in an M camera - requires a shift in thinking. I'm not sure that there are any simple solutions. Even adding in dioptric correction to the rfM's viewfinder might be difficult (in such a small space) - it will be interesting to see. Doing so would at least optimise the photographer's view of the rangefinder. But changing things to improve the manual focusing itself needs additional thought. Its a difficult one.

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Churchill also used the phrase.

He also used a lot of the adjectives from the OP.

[DadDadDaddyo]

Y'know what?

I've just come up with something important!

The term "Rangefinder," or "Rangefinder-style," as applied to digital camera bodies at least, appears to signify those bodies for which the location of the eyepiece for the viewfinder is at the upper left corner of camera's back. 

So what do we call all the others, I mean, all those digital cameras on which the eyepiece for the viewfinder is located at the top-center (as viewed from the rear)?

My friends, the answer is obvious, and simple....

All those other cameras, I propose, we designate as.....

Nosefinders!

This, in honor of every photographer who has ever taken time out during a shoot to wipe off the greasy smunge spot on the back of their very expensive camera body.

C'mon, tell me you never have...

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

My point being that we have plenty of systems/mechanisms all of which have their strengths and weaknesses. Trying to 'upgrade' these - improve manual focusing in an M camera - requires a shift in thinking. I'm not sure that there are any simple solutions. Even adding in dioptric correction to the rfM's viewfinder might be difficult (in such a small space) - it will be interesting to see. Doing so would at least optimise the photographer's view of the rangefinder. But changing things to improve the manual focusing itself needs additional thought. Its a difficult one.

Yes, it is going to be interesting.  The EV1 has thrown the cat among the pigeons for Leica. With the M10 and M11, you have a good optical rangefinder and EVF available with the Visoflex.  Adding the EV1 was a brave, and I think good step.  But it has thrown up the core problem of accurately focusing the lovely manual M lenses across a useful range of focal lengths.  As many have commented - do they really want to own two M cameras to achieve good focus across the range?

Leica used to offer M lenses in 18-21-24-28-35-50-75-90-135 focal lengths, with the WATE and MATE, and more recently close focus lenses in 35mm & 50mm, and the 50/0.95, 75/1.25 & 90/1.5 all very challenging for the base optical rangefinder camera, best suited to 35 & 50mm.  For the latest Noctiluxes, Leica even commented that they were best used with the SL cameras.

My hope is that both the M12 and the EV2 will have vastly improved viewfinders, with accurate focusing across the range, with no pointless innovation - actually, I’d like a lot of the current feature bloat removed.  The M was apparently about what was needed for photography - accurate focusing would be central to that, in ways which the current M11 has features which aren’t.

[setuporg]

11 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

close focus lenses in 35mm & 50mm

And 28mm

Reading this thread, I’ve realized that many folks mistake the original post.  I dislike the yet imaginary idea of a simulated digital rangefinder.  This is not a criticism of the EV1 as it came now because that thing has barely any focus confirmation at all, unless you count focus peaking.  It’s like focusing a view camera.

As an imaginary exercise, it should not be insulting to anyone as it’s not anyone’s specific and dearly held concept yet.  (But if you were thinking of it warmly, then I’m sorry.:). It is a preemptive expression of artistic rage at a probable direction of where it is all going.  Thank me when the rangefinder is on the verge of being discontinued as someone who took a stand.  Cheers!

Edited Saturday at 10:55 PM by setuporg

[IkarusJohn]

Just now, setuporg said:

And 28mm

Not for those who can’t see the entire viewfinder window.  I like my 28s, but many struggle.

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[setuporg]

3 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not for those who can’t see the entire viewfinder window.  I like my 28s, but many struggle.

The close focusing 28mm finally made me add it to the fantastic Summilux when it was released alongside the M11-P.  The P is gone but I easily see why one would have both the Lux and the Cron.  The close focusing is of course a gimmick but making latte pictures is a legal requirement on the Instagram now.

[Stephen.s1]

Getting back to rangefinders..  70 years ago when I was a (among other tasks) stringer for the New Haven Register and my tool of choice was a 4x5 Speed Graphic.  It had an excellent range finder available as an accessory.  It was coupled to the focus knob/wheel. The "viewfinder window" was a wire frame.   

Memories.... 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:24 PM by Stephen.s1
correct spelling...