S4 speculations

[helged]

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2 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

@helged, I have not heard that and it is interesting.  I don’t remember, was Hasselblad still “Hasselblad” when the XD was created? I am not a fan of their new lenses and I know those are not Hasselblad vintage because the company changed hands, but curious nonetheless.

I think (also not remembering), that there is likely a challenge on focus motors for larger lenses.  Even mirrorless, they are larger than the L series and the SL 50 ‘lux was a slow focus in part because of the heavy glass.

It could be interesting to put SL glass on an S mirrorless, but for me that defeats the purpose.  I use M, R and S glass on the SL system, but I have never used the “T” lenses with the APC crop on an SL.  It would seem the S mirrorless would still be too big for a backup body.  I would do this the other way around and use S Mirrorless glass on an SL though.

I follow you, I havn't used T-lenses on L-bodies myself...

On the other hand, having access to lenses ranging from 10mm to 600mm (in L-mount), plus the existing S-lenses, plus more special and vintage  35mm-format lenses, is an interesting option. The entrance bill to S4 is then the body + a L-mount adapter. Plus, possibly, one of the new mirrorless S-lenses.

Furthwrmore, it would be interesting if the L-mount lenses are 'allowed' to use 35x35mm of the S4 sensor. I can't see why not. 

Re the making of the first first XD: This was when Hasselblad was Hasselblad... 

Edited March 1 by helged

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[irenedp]

Someone has mentioned the quality of the S lenses, and yesterday or the day before David posted a fantastic image taken with the S3 at F13, so I went out this morning and made a test. One image is taken with the S3, 1 second, and the 30 mm, at F13. The other is taken with the IQ4, 1/13th, at F12, with the 35 mm. ISO 100 in both cases. Focal lengths are not equal... the Elmarit equates to 24 mm, and the Schneider blue ring to 21. The IQ4 has a 4x3 format. But although one is 70 mp and the other 150, the Elmarit holds. It's not as good, but very good indeed. Both files have been reduced to the statutory 2.7 MP but hope still can be viewed with a decent resolution. The first one is the S3

Other things such as color balance and exposure were adjusted and are close but not equal. Each camera has its signal. Both are pleasing. Nothing else was done, neither focusing, nor curves, etc.

They are taken in my usual testing ground about half an hour drive. This morning it was foggy and some very light snow was starting to fall. I think I have a Fuji 100 image taken around 2022  atthe same place, with the 23 mm (a 17 equivalent), although the season was different. Will seek it out, and post it for comparison. 

 

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[irenedp]

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[davidmknoble]

@irenedp what software do you edit in?  Just curious. Great comparison!

[irenedp]

the IQ4 file is developed in C1 and edited in photoshop

the Leica file developed in Lightroom and edited in Photoshop. 

All files end up in the Lightroom catalog, but since a few months ago, it cannot edit IQ files. On the other hand, for the first development, Capture One made much more of the files. Sadly, as I don't have a. paid version, I cannot edit other files than the IQ ones in C1.

[irenedp]

And here's the GFX file... got wrong the lens, was the 32-64 at 32 mm, so about 25 mm equivalent. Not too far from the others. F7.1, 1/13th, taken with tripod at ISO 100. The detail is very good - the 32-64 was a great lens, as the 110-, the color very different. 

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Edited March 1 by irenedp

[ZHNL]

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I have to say FOR ME, when I talk about the appealing of S glasses rendering. It is mainly wide open, shallow DOF. S glasses are sharp when stop down but that is not the reason I value them. 
 

at f8/f11, I haven’t seen any modern glasses either zoom or prime I have struggle. It becomes such a simple task with modern computer aid design. I am not trying to question manufacture design choice as this render specialty carry huge trade off such as size, material, AF and cost. However, This trade off also makes S special because they are designed at different time, market. 
 

but I have to say this kind of assessment is highly personal. If you don’t see those as nice trade off you take then Fuji or Hasse modern design or even future S ML glasses (I assume) just make more sense IMHO. 

[GMB]

I am using the system since 2011. Had the S2, S006, S007, and S3. Still have the last 006, 007, and 3. I shoot mostly outdoors and often in bad weather (dust, rain, etc.). Landscape, nature, and portraits. I love the haptic of the camera and lenses (although not the weight), in particular the OVF. Overall, I prefer the handling of the S over that of the SL3, although the latter is, objectively speaking, better (IBIS, AF etc.). However, like many other S users, I were, and still, are, frustrated that Leica basically stopped developing the system after the S007.

This as background information. Now to the topic of this discussion: Speculation about the S4 (if there is one).

• As I said in another thread before, I think the S4 will be an SL 3 steroids. Thus: bigger sensor and more MP and IBIS, High ISO, and AF at least as good the SL3.
• I also think it will allow the use of the existing S glass because otherwise existing S customers, who have invested lots of money in the existing (and excellent!) S glass, will be furious and Leica will be seen as a brand that cannot be trusted. Plus: It is in the Leica DNA to allow old glass to be used on new cameras.
• I also think it will be weather sealed as is the existing S and the SL.
• If space in the body allows, it will have a large internal memory.
• And finally, it will have a goody that distinguishes it from the competition. No idea what that might be but is will be more than the red dot and a hefty price.

As to the pricing: I am optimistic that Leica will price it competitively, meaning 25-30% higher than the main competition. The bigh question than is: Who does Leica consider to be the main competition? Hassy/Fuji or Phase One? My guess is that it is Hassy/Fuji.

Will I be interested? Depends. There are two improvements a S4 hopefully has over the S3 that might cause me to upgrade. First is IBIS. I like shooting handheld and IBIS would be a great help for me. Second is weight. The current S is quite heavy. So a lighter body would be welcomed. However, I admit that I prefer the body size and form of the S over the SL3. And then it depends on how much the body would cost and how well the existing lenses work on the new body.

Anyway, as I am happy with the S3, I am watching this with interest but not with great anticipation. If my images are not good, it certainly is not because I do not have the right tools.

The attached was shot last week with the 45 Elmarit at f5.6. I am fascinated by waves. They never, ever stop for thousands and millions of years.

Georg

 

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Edited March 1 by GMB

[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

I am using the system since 2011. Had the S2, S006, S007, and S3. Still have the last 006, 007, and 3. I shoot mostly outdoors and often in bad weather (dust, rain, etc.). Landscape, nature, and portraits. I love the haptic of the camera and lenses (although not the weight), in particular the OVF. Overall, I prefer the handling of the S over that of the SL3, although the latter is, objectively speaking, better (IBIS, AF etc.). However, like many other S users, I were, and still, are, frustrated that Leica basically stopped developing the system after the S007.

This as background information. Now to the topic of this discussion: Speculation about the S4 (if there is one).

• As I said in another thread before, I think the S4 will be an SL 3 steroids. Thus: bigger sensor and more MP and IBIS, High ISO, and AF at least as good the SL3.
• I also think it will allow the use of the existing S glass because otherwise existing S customers, who have invested lots of money in the existing (and excellent!) S glass, will be furious and Leica will be seen as a brand that cannot be trusted. Plus: It is in the Leica DNA to allow old glass to be used on new cameras.
• I also think it will be weather sealed as is the existing S and the SL.
• If space in the body allows, it will have a large internal memory.
• And finally, it will have a goody that distinguishes it from the competition. No idea what that might be but is will be more than the red dot and a hefty price.

As to the pricing: I am optimistic that Leica will price it competitively, meaning 25-30% higher than the main competition. The bigh question than is: Who does Leica consider to be the main competition? Hassy/Fuji or Phase One? My guess is that it is Hassy/Fuji.

Will I be interested? Depends. There are two improvements a S4 hopefully has over the S3 that might cause me to upgrade. First is IBIS. I like shooting handheld and IBIS would be a great help for me. Second is weight. The current S is quite heavy. So a lighter body would be welcomed. However, I admit that I prefer the body size and form of the S over the SL3. And then it depends on how much the body would cost and how well the existing lenses work on the new body.

Anyway, as I am happy with the S3, I am watching this with interest but not with great anticipation. If my images are not good, it certainly is not because I do not have the right tools.

The attached was shot last week with the 45 Elmarit at f5.6. I am fascinated by waves. They never, ever stop for thousands and millions of years.

Georg

 

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The weight of the S body is not much of an issue for me (about the same as a Nikon 5D, maybe even less, and not much more than an X1DII). It is surprisingly light considering the large OVF system. Plus, the ergonomics make it a delight to handle. The lens weight and size can become a bit of a burden, especially carrying two or three lenses out in the field. I guess that's just the price one pays for such wonderful lenses.

[Joakim]

On 3/1/2025 at 11:04 PM, GMB said:

I also think it will allow the use of the existing S glass because otherwise existing S customers, who have invested lots of money in the existing (and excellent!) S glass, will be furious and Leica will be seen as a brand that cannot be trusted. Plus: It is in the Leica DNA to allow old glass to be used on new cameras.

But that would mean it has to be a DSLR which I think no one wants, with a mirrorless camera you must have an adapter to use old SLR style lenses. And I don’t think many will be furious about this since it’s in the nature of things when moving to mirrorless. Canon and Nikon has done it and even Leica in a way with the L mount without any saying that they can’t be trusted.

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, Joakim said:

But that would mean it has to be a DSLR which I think no one wants, with a mirrorless camera you must have an adapter to use old SLR style lenses. And I don’t think many will be furious about this since it’s in the nature of things when moving to mirrorless. Canon and Nikon has done it and even Leica in a way with the L mount without any saying that they can’t be trusted.

Using them with an adapter with electronic contacts is expected.

[Joakim]

8 hours ago, SrMi said:

Using them with an adapter with electronic contacts is expected.

Yes that’s what I am saying.

[GMB]

6 hours ago, Joakim said:

Yes that’s what I am saying.

Me too. Well I didn’t say it but it was implied. I also don’t see an issue with that if the adapter works well, which I am sure it will. 

[Pieter12]

15 hours ago, Joakim said:

But that would mean it has to be a DSLR which I think no one wants, with a mirrorless camera you must have an adapter to use old SLR style lenses. And I don’t think many will be furious about this since it’s in the nature of things when moving to mirrorless. Canon and Nikon has done it and even Leica in a way with the L mount without any saying that they can’t be trusted.

Speak for yourself. I personally wouldn’t touch a camera without an optical viewfinder.

[davidmknoble]

18 hours ago, Joakim said:

But that would mean it has to be a DSLR which I think no one wants, with a mirrorless camera you must have an adapter to use old SLR style lenses. And I don’t think many will be furious about this since it’s in the nature of things when moving to mirrorless. Canon and Nikon has done it and even Leica in a way with the L mount without any saying that they can’t be trusted.

I don’t think @GMB was at all suggesting an expectation of a DSLR.  I think the point was that with glass that Leica has explicitly said will work with 100mp sensors and maybe more, it would be expected an adapter will be available to use with a new mirrorless system.  If not, existing users will have to determine if they can get a return on reinvesting in a new lens lineup not trusting a second generation will not change again.

The one thing Leica did poorly, IMHO, on the SL system was create 3 bodies, all different sizes, require it different grips with extra battery and different RRS brackets for mounting with tripods.  I have an SL2-S reporter and SL3, but I have 2 grips, one for each, and two tripod mounts, one for each.  That is inefficient.

[Joakim]

8 hours ago, GMB said:

Me too. Well I didn’t say it but it was implied. I also don’t see an issue with that if the adapter works well, which I am sure it will. 

Ok then I misunderstood what you said, I just got the impression you wanted to use your existing S lenses mounted directly on the camera because for me it was so obvious that they will supply an adapter so I assumed you thought so too. Sorry.

Edited April 3 by Joakim

[Joakim]

7 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Speak for yourself. I personally wouldn’t touch a camera without an optical viewfinder.

I never said anything about my personal preference when it comes to the camera type. I have both kinds of cameras and I enjoy both if you must know.

[Joakim]

4 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

I don’t think @GMB was at all suggesting an expectation of a DSLR.  I think the point was that with glass that Leica has explicitly said will work with 100mp sensors and maybe more, it would be expected an adapter will be available to use with a new mirrorless system.  If not, existing users will have to determine if they can get a return on reinvesting in a new lens lineup not trusting a second generation will not change again.

The one thing Leica did poorly, IMHO, on the SL system was create 3 bodies, all different sizes, require it different grips with extra battery and different RRS brackets for mounting with tripods.  I have an SL2-S reporter and SL3, but I have 2 grips, one for each, and two tripod mounts, one for each.  That is inefficient.

Isn’t it the most common scenario in the camera industry that a new generation of a camera comes with a modified design and thus requires new accessories? Something I am sure RRS is really happy about… 😁

 

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[davidmknoble]

16 hours ago, Joakim said:

Isn’t it the most common scenario in the camera industry that a new generation of a camera comes with a modified design and thus requires new accessories? Something I am sure RRS is really happy about… 😁

 

See, that’s the point.  The S System has used the same battery for at least 3 generations along with the bottom grip.  The body is the same size so my RRS bracket has fit my S2 all the way to the S3.  Yet, we have increased dramatically on the inside.

When we had film cameras, the size remained the same, even when the light meter was put in.

Common is not Leica.  Leica is uncommon, so my point was it would be nice for the SL system to have kept a body size such that the simple accessories still fit.  The S system has done that (chargers included).

[Stuart Richardson]

I think that is two main things:

1. The grip was large and since it was not a full time live view camera the battery requirements were comparatively modest and the battery size available was very large. So they made a very powerful battery that was possible to easily power all the generations of the body. The S body itself didn't change much, and as such, neither did the requirements. The SL had major changes to the body shell to add features: first to add IBIS and change a grip that many complained about, then to add a tilting screen and new power button and to decrease the size and weight of the body. These changes required changes to the shape and character of the body.

2. I think the S was also locked into its size because of the high expense and low volume. If they had to redesign any major body component -- the mirror assembly, VF or shutter assembly, I think it would have not made any practical sense. They did not sell enough units to make such changes, even if they wanted to. You need only look at the S3 for that. It was a camera that launched in 2020 and was using a HDMI standard from 2006 (or 2009, if it was 1.4, but 1.4 supports 4k) and could only output 1080p 8 bit 422 to an external recorder, despite doing 4k 422 internal. They did not have the time/money to change the HDMI standard from launch it seems. I remember being kind of baffled by that.

What happened with the S system all starts to make sense when you see what was happening with Leica corporate. Around 2012 or so Leica sold a 44% stake to Blackstone, which is the largest private equity firm in the world. Private equity is largely about increasing corporate efficiency in order to increase profit. An investor like Blackstone would look at Leica and try to trim the fat. The S system would have been a very obvious target for them. Slow sales, uncooperative retailers (not many liked stocking the S as it was so expensive and slow to sell) and a completely unfavorable market position as compared to launch. The S2 launched into a camera world with no real mirrorless cameras and the highest resolution full frame SLR was 24mp. Just a year or two later and all of a sudden there was the D800, Fuji GFX, Hasselblad X1D etc.

After Blackstone was a Leica owner, the S system saw very limited and extremely slow development. As far as I can tell, the only things that came out after Blackstone were the S007 (likely already in development), S3 (essentially putting an M10R sensor in the S007), the 45mm lens, 100mm lens and the S adapter L...not a lot for 8 years or so. Clearly it made more sense to slow roll everything and just slowly trickle it along with no real investment or resources than it did to discontinue it completely, but it was effectively on ice from 2015. Once the S007 did not make a big dent in the market, that was the death knell. The strategy with the S4 is almost certainly to share as many parts and resources as possible with the SL system, which has much higher sales. I think it is fair to say that the liklihood of an S4 with an optical viewfinder is approaching zero, barring some sort of retro edition that is just an S3 (which in itself is kind of that...using a souped up 2008 body).

Edited April 6 by Stuart Richardson