S4 speculations

[wjdrijfhout]

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50 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

If anything, then I think an SL3 that was more like the proposed S1RII would make more sense. The S4 will be a higher MP count because of the larger sensor and so it can stand in for the higher resolution version of the SL body. It would make sense to make a high resolution (which 40-50mp certainly still is) body that has the speed and video output to replace both the SL3S and SL3 for most people and those who need more speed, and have the S4 with high resolution and a larger sensor for users that prioritize that, like landscape, high end fashion, fine art etc.

Agreed, just one model in 40-50mp range, with high speed, great high ISO, etc. And S4 for high resolution work. They mentioned the lenses would be compatible.... (crop applied one would assume). 

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[Smogg]

22 minutes ago, wjdrijfhout said:

Agreed, just one model in 40-50mp range, with high speed, great high ISO, etc. And S4 for high resolution work. They mentioned the lenses would be compatible.... (crop applied one would assume). 

I would like to believe that the S4 will ever see the light of day, but I have serious doubts about it. I just don't see how Leica will compete with Hasselblad and Fujifilm.

[Filip Baraka]

3 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I would like to believe that the S4 will ever see the light of day, but I have serious doubts about it. I just don't see how Leica will compete with Hasselblad and Fujifilm.

By giving you fewer features for more money, of course 😃

[Smogg]

7 minutes ago, Filip Baraka said:

By giving you fewer features for more money, of course 😃

In terms of brand recognition, build quality, ergonomics and incredible colour, it will be almost impossible to beat the Hasselblad (let's not forget about the rumor about a new camera this year to replace the X2D). In terms of autofocus speed, Leica is clearly not the market leader and is unlikely to catch up with the GFX. And in terms of prices, Hasselblad and Fuji have set pretty strict limits for potential competitors.

[tom0511]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Smogg:

In terms of brand recognition, build quality, ergonomics and incredible colour, it will be almost impossible to beat the Hasselblad (let's not forget about the rumor about a new camera this year to replace the X2D). In terms of autofocus speed, Leica is clearly not the market leader and is unlikely to catch up with the GFX. And in terms of prices, Hasselblad and Fuji have set pretty strict limits for potential competitors.

In terms of lenses. I now prefer my x2d over Leica S/SL/M in regards of color, but I still think the S lenses smooth rendering is not achieved by the x2d lenses (except maybe the 80mm). Another point would be lens compatibility between different systems. I think it's quite cool you can use S and M lenses on the SL or on the CL. And if rumors are true, it would be cool to be able to use M or SL lenses on a S4 (even if you have to crop).

Personally I use the SL3 as mainflexible camera, but for MF for me the precise AF, IBIS and smaller size/weigt of X2d vs Leica S makes me prefer the Hassy right now.

And I was tired of waiting and waiting what might eventually happen with an S4. And how long would we have to wait for a complete lens line up?

I'm quite fine with the x2d now, love it. 

 

I am quite disappointed to have spent so many thousands of Euro for my nearly complete (and wonderful) lens lineup and not having an up to date body with reliable AF and IBIS  to use them.

[Pieter12]

Who is the target market for the imaginary S4? Well-heeled, status-seeking, label chasers? Professional photographers? Or maybe none of those. Maybe the unicorn S4 would be a brand-aura camera just to show what Leica is capable of? In order to be viable, an S4 and a suite of lenses would cost a fortune to develop and a fortune to purchase. It could sink Leica (like the M5 almost did) if there is no market rationale behind it.

[Jeff S]

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29 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

In terms of lenses. I now prefer my x2d over Leica S/SL/M in regards of color, but I still think the S lenses smooth rendering is not achieved by the x2d lenses (except maybe the 80mm). Another point would be lens compatibility between different systems. I think it's quite cool you can use S and M lenses on the SL or on the CL. And if rumors are true, it would be cool to be able to use M or SL lenses on a S4 (even if you have to crop).

Personally I use the SL3 as mainflexible camera, but for MF for me the precise AF, IBIS and smaller size/weigt of X2d vs Leica S makes me prefer the Hassy right now.

And I was tired of waiting and waiting what might eventually happen with an S4. And how long would we have to wait for a complete lens line up?

I'm quite fine with the x2d now, love it. 

 

I am quite disappointed to have spent so many thousands of Euro for my nearly complete (and wonderful) lens lineup and not having an up to date body with reliable AF and IBIS  to use them.

It’s a terrific camera, but the lack of a robust Hasselblad dealer network in the US, with none near me, and the only service center now on the opposite coast, unfortunately keeps me away. Plus, the DJI ownership doesn’t exactly instill comfort in company direction and long term support. I’m hopeful that an S4 could provide a worthy alternative, maybe even including a joystick, but I’m not holding my breath. The SL2 remains my workhorse, alongside the M10-R and M10M.  First world issues.

[SrMi]

13 hours ago, Filip Baraka said:

By giving you fewer features for more money, of course 😃

Fewer features than what Hasselblad offers would be really hard :).

[SrMi]

14 hours ago, Smogg said:

I would like to believe that the S4 will ever see the light of day, but I have serious doubts about it. I just don't see how Leica will compete with Hasselblad and Fujifilm.

In 2022, Stefan Daniel said a new Leica medium format camera could come in 2025.

 

Edited February 24 by SrMi

[SrMi]

13 hours ago, Smogg said:

In terms of brand recognition, build quality, ergonomics and incredible colour, it will be almost impossible to beat the Hasselblad (let's not forget about the rumor about a new camera this year to replace the X2D). In terms of autofocus speed, Leica is clearly not the market leader and is unlikely to catch up with the GFX. And in terms of prices, Hasselblad and Fuji have set pretty strict limits for potential competitors.

Some rumors mention that the new MF camera could work with L-mount and old S-mount lenses.

Of course, it could have LPC, which is a huge advantage for some. It may even offer live-view clipping warnings and AF-C. A significant advantage of X2D are the small primes. Leica tends to build larger lenses with less light fall-off and less distortion.

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Who is the target market for the imaginary S4? Well-heeled, status-seeking, label chasers? Professional photographers? Or maybe none of those. Maybe the unicorn S4 would be a brand-aura camera just to show what Leica is capable of? In order to be viable, an S4 and a suite of lenses would cost a fortune to develop and a fortune to purchase. It could sink Leica (like the M5 almost did) if there is no market rationale behind it.

Artists :).

[costa43]

15 hours ago, Smogg said:

I would like to believe that the S4 will ever see the light of day, but I have serious doubts about it. I just don't see how Leica will compete with Hasselblad and Fujifilm.

Maybe by not competing directly, medium format is a small market in the grand scheme of things. The S4 will be Leica’s flagship imaging machine which will be compatible with S and SL lenses as well as M glass. I see the existing user base as their biggest target market.  If they execute this model correctly and price it right then people will pick one up. S users are a natural fit. SL3 users who want more resolution will be tempted. Even with a crop, the output will be better than the SL3. More resolution and better tonality and colour fidelity. The SL line can then evolve into a Sony A1/Nikon Z9 style camera where it is based on ultimate performance. The DSLR S cameras are very niche as they stand alone but this S model will likely be an SL3 style camera on steroids. I’ve never owned an S camera and although I have no need for one for the casual stuff I do, I am curious by nature and will consider it if Leica nail the brief. 

Edited February 24 by costa43

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

 Leica tends to build larger lenses with less light fall-off and less distortion.

And with the SL APO line, they standardized the larger barrel size for economies (and manufacturing and production ease/reliability, parts sharing, etc). Karbe explained how the wider focal lengths, the 35 APO in particular, was therefore bigger than it needed to be, but allowed for easier optimization of IQ. I suspect maybe some software correction as well.  

As you note, the S lenses were optimized by manufacturing to eliminate distortions that would otherwise be noticeable via the OVF. It will be interesting to see how Leica deals with a mirrorless S4 in terms of lens manufacturing standards and price point.

Edited February 24 by Jeff S

[Smogg]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

Some rumors mention that the new MF camera could work with L-mount and old S-mount lenses.

Of course, it could have LPC, which is a huge advantage for some. It may even offer live-view clipping warnings and AF-C. A significant advantage of X2D are the small primes. Leica tends to build larger lenses with less light fall-off and less distortion.

Don't forget about the very modest AF-C capabilities of the SL3, and the S4 will require even more processor power. Also, if the rumors are true (which is very likely, given the timeline of previous cameras), then in six months we will see the X2D II or X3D, which will probably add new features (maybe AF-C and live-view clipping). In fact, I am not a spiteful person at all and will be very happy to see the S4, competition is always good for users. I am just trying to fantasize about what it could be like, so as not to lag behind the leaders of the medium format camera market.

[Pieter12]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

Artists :).

Wink, wink. Most artists can’t afford or justify such expenses when reasonable and less costly alternatives already exist.

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, Smogg said:

Don't forget about the very modest AF-C capabilities of the SL3, and the S4 will require even more processor power. Also, if the rumors are true (which is very likely, given the timeline of previous cameras), then in six months we will see the X2D II or X3D, which will probably add new features (maybe AF-C and live-view clipping). In fact, I am not a spiteful person at all and will be very happy to see the S4, competition is always good for users. I am just trying to fantasize about what it could be like, so as not to lag behind the leaders of the medium format camera market.

Yes.

Hopefully, a new Hasselblad will have relevant updates.

Leica should maybe focus on Phase One features (frame averaging, raw histograms) as its price is likely to be high, higher than SL3.

[Stef63]

 I see a lot of speculation based on rumors—rumors that were, at some point, just speculation themselves.

So, here’s mine: There will be no S4. Leica’s medium format line is dead.

When Leica introduced the S2, it was a bold move. At the time, medium format had a clear (resolution) advantage over DSLRs and the emerging mirrorless cameras. But the landscape has changed. Today, the medium format market is driven by advanced software solutions—intelligent autofocus, computational enhancements, and other innovations. And if there’s one area where Leica struggles, it’s software development. Unlike optics and physical design, software requires massive teams of engineers, something Leica simply doesn’t have. Just look at the lag in autofocus performance of the recently released SL3 and SL3s or the time it took to fix major bugs in the SL3 and M11.

Beyond that, developing yet another new line of lenses would be incredibly costly.

So, as much as I’d love to see an S4, I doubt it will ever happen.

But hey, that’s just my speculation.  Time will tell if it becomes a rumor 🙃.

[davidmknoble]

The S4 will come according to folks I’ve spoken with at Leica and I believe them.

I like the X2D as well, but when I spoke with the Hasselblad folks, they confirmed that while the system will work in misty conditions, the weak link is the bayonet mount for moisture intrusion.  That and almost every lens has a front barrel that moves in and out versus a fixed length lens.  

I wash off my S system with a gentle stream of water as necessary and shoot in pouring rain without worry.  I cannot do that with the Hasselblad system.

Leica’s strong point was the lens system.  That and if they developed really good IBIS in a mirrorless, it becomes an updated system.  I don’t think any of us can predict what professionals would do given a choice, but I’m confident they will be consulted.

The last S system was delayed for many reasons, and I suspect Leica will not announce the S4 until it is truly ready.

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[irenedp]

I have never used the Hasselblad. Most everything that I have seen online (YouTube, etc) shows significantly better color than Fuji, but I think Leica lenses are better.

Someone has mentioned some of the Phase One features. The Phase One processing capabilities are significant (e.g. frame averaging), but not devoid of issues. For instance, to produce an empty street and not get any halos or veils you have to get your good five minutes shooting and, regardless, take 2 separate exposures to be able to clean areas that have been affected by people standing still for long. It is really useful if you are photographing architecture; also. to get the nice effects of long exposures, but after all, just a gimmick for most.

If Leica can produce an honest 100 MP with good Ibis and perfect image quality, they may have a winner. However, the market now is price sensitive. I don't see an issue attracting photographers from the Leica ranks. After all, many are price insensitive. I do, for those coming from Hasselblad or Fuji. And definitely Phase One photographers won't trade downwards. Whilst the quality of an S is excellent, it's no match for an IQ4, let alone for the upcoming IQ5. So, my five pence... if I were Leica I would try to appeal to their own customer base and put the new S as the pinnacle of the range, and hence, make it an object of desire.

[helged]

On 2/24/2025 at 1:15 PM, davidmknoble said:

The S4 will come according to folks I’ve spoken with at Leica and I believe them.

I like the X2D as well, but when I spoke with the Hasselblad folks, they confirmed that while the system will work in misty conditions, the weak link is the bayonet mount for moisture intrusion.  That and almost every lens has a front barrel that moves in and out versus a fixed length lens.  

I wash off my S system with a gentle stream of water as necessary and shoot in pouring rain without worry.  I cannot do that with the Hasselblad system.

Leica’s strong point was the lens system.  That and if they developed really good IBIS in a mirrorless, it becomes an updated system.  I don’t think any of us can predict what professionals would do given a choice, but I’m confident they will be consulted.

The last S system was delayed for many reasons, and I suspect Leica will not announce the S4 until it is truly ready.

+1. Yes, Leica representatives have confirmed that a mirrorless medium format system (body + lenses) is under development. The project can of course be terminated by economic/technical/other reasons, but it is ongoing. To use S4 (or whatever) with a new set of mirrorless S-mount lenses, the current set of S-lenses, plus the many incarnations of L-mount lenses (which should open up for M-mount lenses as well), is quite interesting. If S4 has a 2:3-format sensor, one can imagine that e.g. L-mount lenses are 'allowed' to use a more square-ish, or a 1:1-sized, image format. Would be nice, although breaking with the long-lasting 2:3-format Leica history may not see the light...