How about a really new lens again?

[3D-Kraft.com]

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If I have followed the "roter-punkt-kamera.de" database and the press releases of the last years correctly, the Noctilux-M 75/1.25 ASPH (2018) was the last fundamentally newly developed lens in the M lineup.

Otherwise, we had the APO Summicron 35 (VII) in 2021 with a more fundamental redesign.

The Summilux 35 was modernized somewhat in 2022 - but ultimately probably only in terms of the reduced close-up limit, number of blades and lens hood. The Summilux 50 was also only slightly revised in 2023 (close-up limit, blades, lens hood, may be better coating). The Summicron 28 (III) also seems to have received only a slight revision (close-up limit, lens hood) in 2023.

Otherwise only limited special editions and meanwhile 5 re-issues of some classics. Please correct me, where I am wrong or where I missed something.

Compared to the number of new releases from Voigtländer or, more recently, Thypoch, what is happening at Leica seems rather slow to me, considering that the M series still seems to have the greatest relevance for them.

It may be that the limited number of frame lines of the rangefinder limits the development dynamics, but in the past we have also had various focal lengths below 28mm or, for example, 40mm outside the frame line grid. So there is at least the hope that the lens development engineers will be inspired by a Leica EFV-M to develop new things outside of this framework.

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[erl]

The limiting factor in my photography is me. Any changes of improvements in lenses will not improve my photography. Working on my technique may show some improvement. Certainly all the gear I have is perfectly functional with no practical need for change.

[davidmknoble]

One disadvantage of developing really great lenses, is that it can take years to design a better one!  Think of how long it took to design an APO 50 summicron?  It’s about engineering as well as the lens combinations.  You are right about designs below 28mm.  The 21mm SEM is a lens that will be hard to beat.

There have been other threads about how hard it is to get some older cameras fixed, especially those with electronics. So, I’m sure Leica also wants a long enough product life cycle to justify parts and repairs.  Getting a new lens in a given focal length too quickly makes it tough on repair part inventories.

I don’t believe that if Leica issues an M with an EVF that they will design lenses that only work with an EVF.  It alienates all other M’s before it and isn’t a proven concept yet.  However, it does open up the use of the M-R adapter and maybe other adapters.

Just my thoughts.

[lct]

What an EVF-M could inspire is M lenses focusing closer than current ones while remaining compact. A 50 focusing at 0.5m for instance. Leitz did it with goggles in the 60s but EVFs can replace the goggles now. Or a 75 focusing at 0.5m too. Cosina did it with the Ultron 75/1.9. Or a 21 focusing at 0.4m the same way as Leitz did with Super-Angulon's in the past. Of course those lenses could be used down to 0.7m in RF mode on film or "classic" digital bodies. Another idea could be a compact 90/2.8 focusing down to 0.8m or 0.7m, to replace Tele-Elmarits from the 60s and 70s which could only focus at 1m. Cosina did it down to 0.9m but performances of the Skopar 90/2.8 are not stellar. FWIW.

[Beemermark]

There are really no new lenses within the optical limitations.  I see Leica has brought out a new 50mm Summilux only made possible by new glass.

[jankap]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Beemermark:

There are really no new lenses within the optical limitations.  I see Leica has brought out a new 50mm Summilux only made possible by new glass.

With the optical limitation, you mean the rangefinder? My Summicron R focusses down to 0.5 meter, and it was manufactured around 30 years ago. 

[KFo]

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[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb erl:

The limiting factor in my photography is me. Any changes of improvements in lenses will not improve my photography. Working on my technique may show some improvement. Certainly all the gear I have is perfectly functional with no practical need for change.

That's fine for you - but not for Leica (they cannot survive if no one needs a change) and not for those looking for improvements.

There are several lenses in the M portfolio that can no longer compete with new releases from Voigtländer. If you look at other brands like Sigma, then you can see the improvements that could be achieved in computer based lens design especially during the last years. May be also from Zeiss with the upcoming Otus ML line. I do not see these improvements anymore from Leica. Even their latest new designs (the Noctilux 75/1.25 and the pretty similar Summilux 90) look quite aged compared to a Sigma DG DN 85/1.4 or a Sony GM 85/1.4 but perhaps the small M-mount made their design too complex.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb davidmknoble:

I don’t believe that if Leica issues an M with an EVF that they will design lenses that only work with an EVF.  It alienates all other M’s before it and isn’t a proven concept yet.  However, it does open up the use of the M-R adapter and maybe other adapters.

It does not necessarily mean, that they do not work with optical RF. E.g. we see 40mm lenses from Voigtländer like the excellent 40/1.2 ASPH Nokton that can be used on the M, if you have enough phantasy to extrapolate from the wrong frame lines.

Edited February 23 by 3D-Kraft.com

[FrozenInTime]

Voigtländer are really playing an A game, with some class leading manual focus lenses for M and other short flange distance cameras.

After their release of the small Color-Skopar 50 f/2.2 and 35 f/3.5, I think it is only a matter of time before we see a fast 35 f/1.0 Nokton ( evolution of the recently discontinued  35 f/1.2 ver III ).

Leica could likely also make a 35 f/1 Noctilux ( smaller than a Zenitar ) but at what cost ?

 

[costa43]

I think the main challenge for Leica when it comes to M is optical excellence in a small package. The made for digital lenses are as good as current technology allows them to be, so I guess we will have to wait for the next big thing before we see anything significantly different coming from the Leica factory. Good point on the EVF M. If it does come then maybe we will get a 40mm or something a little more left field. 

[Jürgen]

Leica seems to want to discontinue lenses with focal lengths smaller than 21mm and larger than 90mm for the M camera line. The Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 and the Apo-Telyt 135mm for the M system will no longer be produced. I don't know if Leica has this crazy idea that people should then buy an SL or later a new S system. I personally don't believe that. The M-System is unique, and it shouldn't be cut back wilfully. For example, why doesn't Leica bring a compact 15mm M lens with a small aperture f/4 onto the market? You can frame a picture wonderfully with the Visoflex II, and to be honest, if you wear glasses you have to use the electronic viewfinder from 28mm. And if there were a parallel M camera line with an EVF viewfinder in the future, it wouldn't be a problem at all. From my point of view, it would have made sense for a small company like Leica to develop a mirrorless camera alongside the successful M camera line, merging the SL and S cameras into one concept. Dancing at too many weddings at the same time is problematic. 😀

[pedaes]

8 minutes ago, Jürgen said:

Leica seems to want to discontinue lenses with focal lengths smaller than 21mm and larger than 90mm

I think it was 'we' who discontinued them by not buying them.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb pedaes:

I think it was 'we' who discontinued them by not buying them.

Yes - but why? In other systems there is enough demand for these focal lengths, so the reason why they are not selling well enough is simply the optical rangfinder - until now.

[Steadimann]

I lover re-releases. I own 35 Steelrim reissue and 50 Noctilux and definitely getting new 50 Classic. Those lenses provide a fresh breath of air around all other manufacturers trying to release only perfect lenses. Answering the question - I'm not sure I could think of some lens which I would be missing in the lineup currently... you have all focal lengths, all styles.. of course they will come up with something, but i'd prefer it's something nice instead of 'perfect'.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb 3D-Kraft.com:

...the Noctilux-M 75/1.25 ASPH (2018) was the last fundamentally newly developed lens in the M lineup.

Just a little correction: The (pretty similar) Summilux 90/1.5 ASPH was issued shortly after the 75 Noctilux and was also a new design, although there are hints that 26 copies have already been produced in 2016: https://leicarumors.com/2019/05/28/leica-summilux-m-90mm-f-1-5-asph-lens-listed-in-the-leica-pocket-guide-total-of-26-lenses-made.aspx/

But these lenses (currently) suffer from too many limitations of the optical rangefinder and the small mount (and they are ridiculously overpriced).

Edited February 23 by 3D-Kraft.com

[T25UFO]

19 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Leica seems to want to discontinue lenses with focal lengths smaller than 21mm and larger than 90mm

Surely this is simple . . . anything wider than 28mm needs an external finder or live view.  The M is a rangefinder camera so wider than 28mm and you're not using the rangefinder.  

The OVF for 90mm and 135mm is hardly ideal and focusing is not easy.  And the 90mm Summilux is not only extremely difficult to focus wide open, it also blocks most of the OVF.  Great on the SL but nearly three time the price of the SL APO 90mm.  Worth it?  I don't think so, which is probably why the Summilux has been discontinued.

The strength of the M has always been 35mm - 50mm so no surprise that these lenses are the most popular.  There are other cameras, even in the Leica range, that are better at handling wider and longer.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

51 minutes ago, Jürgen said:

Leica seems to want to discontinue lenses with focal lengths smaller than 21mm and larger than 90mm for the M camera line. The Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 and the Apo-Telyt 135mm for the M system will no longer be produced. I don't know if Leica has this crazy idea that people should then buy an SL or later a new S system. I personally don't believe that. The M-System is unique, and it shouldn't be cut back wilfully. For example, why doesn't Leica bring a compact 15mm M lens with a small aperture f/4 onto the market? You can frame a picture wonderfully with the Visoflex II, and to be honest, if you wear glasses you have to use the electronic viewfinder from 28mm. And if there were a parallel M camera line with an EVF viewfinder in the future, it wouldn't be a problem at all. From my point of view, it would have made sense for a small company like Leica to develop a mirrorless camera alongside the successful M camera line, merging the SL and S cameras into one concept. Dancing at too many weddings at the same time is problematic. 😀

I have no evidence of this, but I have a feeling this stuff is the result of having a very large private equity stake in the company since 2013. I think Leica before then, and especially before Kaufmann came in 2006 was run very differently. There seemed to be more focus on customer satisfaction, having a top to bottom filled out Leica lens lineup and lots of accessories like tele-converters, close up lenses, Leicavit winders, motor drives etc. The R system had a huge stable of lenses from 15mm to 800 or so. The company seemed to be on the brink and I do think Kaufmann saved them and so I am quite grateful for that, but it did represent a notable change in focus for the company.

Since 2013 Blackstone has owned 44% of the company. What we have seen is the proverbial trimming of the fat. Getting rid of underperforming parts of the Leica ecosystem. Discontinuing 24mm lenses just as a whole, getting rid of the CL system entirely.  I don't think it is a coincidence that the last S lens was introduced in 2014. After that the already in development S007 came out (the S3 was essentially the same camera with a different sensor). Meanwhile they started partnering with cell phone companies, projector companies, watch companies and greatly increased their outsourcing. Almost all the new lenses in the last few years in the SL system are rebranded Sigma or Panasonic lenses. I find it no coincidence that they are the most profitable they have ever been...they are doing less and selling more. They are focusing on selling their most expensive and profitable items and trying to ignore or outsource everything else. The rereleases are fine and all, but think about it...they are literally a way to sell an outdated design that requires little to no R&D at an enormous cost in comparison to any of their competitors. It is certainly a good business idea. However, I have to say, each year that goes on makes me respect companies like Voigtlander and Sigma more. They seem to be constantly innovating and trying new lenses with spectacular optical and mechanical designs that are priced in an affordable way. In most cases they are not as good as the best Leica designs, but I don't feel as exploited buying them as I do with Leica at this point.

Edited February 23 by Stuart Richardson

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb T25UFO:

The OVF for 90mm and 135mm is hardly ideal and focusing is not easy.  And the 90mm Summilux is not only extremely difficult to focus wide open, it also blocks most of the OVF.  Great on the SL but nearly three time the price of the SL APO 90mm.  Worth it?  I don't think so, which is probably why the Summilux has been discontinued.

Where did you see that the 90 Summilux has been discontinued?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[FrozenInTime]

1 minute ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Where did you see that the 90 Summilux has been discontinued?

https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/m-lenses/15833-leica-summilux-90mm-f15-asph-m.html

Clearly they only made one batch ... and they were slow to sell

[Stuart Richardson]

3 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/m-lenses/15833-leica-summilux-90mm-f15-asph-m.html

Clearly they only made one batch ... and they were slow to sell

What no takers for a 14,000 dollar manual focus lens that is heroically difficult to focus on the body it was designed for?

Edited February 23 by Stuart Richardson