3D-Kraft.com Posted February 14 Share #481 Posted February 14 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 10 Stunden schrieb mikeamosau: Not sure why you’d buy an M if you want an EVF. Whole point of the camera is the optical rangefinder, hence the meaning of the M name. Wrong (again and again). "Messsucher" only means "rangefinder". it does not necessarily mean an optomechanical implementation. This was only the case in the past due to a lack of alternatives. Don't mix up tradition with definition. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 14 Posted February 14 Hi 3D-Kraft.com, Take a look here EVF M rumoured. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Carrot Posted February 14 Share #482 Posted February 14 Yes, the SL cameras can take an M lens and they work fine (mine certainly does), but the SL cameras are large and heavy because they have to support L mount lenses. A lot of posts have said that if the RF doesn’t give you what you want, go buy a different make of camera. But those who have invested in M lenses for their quality, simplicity, weight and size naturally want to use them on a camera best designed for them. How many diehard RF users, upset at the ever increasing technology and functionality in each generation of M camera have nonetheless bought into each new version? How many calling for Leica to go back to basics have bought the M6, and sold or locked away their M8/9/10/11? Don’t care what it’s called, but Leica will go the way of Blackberry if they don’t bring out an EVF camera that’s the size and weight of an M. An M (or XYZ) with EVF (and IBIS) is inevitable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebben Posted February 14 Share #483 Posted February 14 I hope they do so that the M can become more minimal again. The bloat in price and focus on having a live view/EVF camera is making the M worse. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 14 Share #484 Posted February 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, pgk said: Its interesting that the only other M mount digital camera (Pixii) is also a rangefinder. It could so easily have been an EVF, or could it? As clear as i recall the author wanted a rangefinder in the first place. Question to ask our colleague @loloboubou1 if he's still interested in the Pixii camera. Edited February 14 by lct Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 14 Share #485 Posted February 14 1 hour ago, pgk said: Its interesting that the only other M mount digital camera (Pixii) is also a rangefinder. It could so easily have been an EVF, or could it? They would have to invent a better way to focus quickly if they went the EVF route. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 14 Share #486 Posted February 14 1 hour ago, lct said: As clear as i recall the author wanted a rangefinder in the first place. But why, given all the clamour for an evfM? [🤔😆] 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted February 14 Share #487 Posted February 14 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 1 Stunde schrieb 3D-Kraft.com: Wrong (again and again). "Messsucher" only means "rangefinder". it does not necessarily mean an optomechanical implementation. This was only the case in the past due to a lack of alternatives. Don't mix up tradition with definition. I do not know which current alternative solution you have in mind. Especially, I do not know of any solution that can replace an optomechanical rangefinder as it is implemented in the current Leica M system. There is more to the rangefinder than measuring the distance to the focus plane. For those who love the M system as it is it is very essential to have the surrounding of the frame in the viewfinder. I suppose it will take some time until we can frame an image within an EVF M in the same manner as in the current M system. Until then, an EVF M is not a full replacement. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D-Kraft.com Posted February 14 Share #488 Posted February 14 vor 7 Minuten schrieb Steve Ash: I do not know which current alternative solution you have in mind. There were already several suggestions described in this thread. Won't repeat it here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 14 Share #489 Posted February 14 vor 1 Stunde schrieb 3D-Kraft.com: Wrong (again and again). "Messsucher" only means "rangefinder". it does not necessarily mean an optomechanical implementation. This was only the case in the past due to a lack of alternatives. Don't mix up tradition with definition. You shouldn't cry "wrong" (again and again) when you are not right. "Messsucher" doesn't mean rangefinder. The word for rangefinder in German is "Entfernungsmesser". While the Barnack cameras had separated rangefinders and viewfinders a "Messsucher" integrates a rangefinder in the viewfinder. An EVF doesn't measure the distance by triangulation and indicates the result in the viewfinder. It is a screen on which the picture the sensor takes from the lens is projected. So the EVF has much more in common with a mirror reflex system than with a rangefinder. Though all this doesn't say anything about whether an M-body with EVF is realistic or not. Just look at the price. An EVF-M with the price of the M would be totally nuts. Rip the M of its "Messsucher" fetish and it becomes ridiculous. You get better and much more elsewhere for much less. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 14 Share #490 Posted February 14 2 hours ago, SrMi said: Some may buy the M for the lenses, though they can also use them with adapters on non-M cameras. I assume that most buy the M because of the rangefinder… Not really. When I walked into a camera shop after my Nikon kit was stolen (F5 and lenses), I was in the rare position of having money and looking for a new system. I was new to digital. Now, you could say that my background was the elegant simplicity of FEs and FMs, But my interest was photography. The Canon 5D Mk II was the latest and greatest. Nikons were not quite up there. Holding a 5D II in my hands with I can’t remember which lens - menus, random buttons and huge AF lenses - I put the camera down and walked out of the shop. Further research, I found the M9 - manual focus, lovely lenses and direct control. The rangefinder was most certainly an afterthought . The whole point of the M system is its quality, very careful thought and simplicity of its operation. Not any one thing. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 14 Share #491 Posted February 14 39 minutes ago, pgk said: But why, given all the clamour for an evfM? [🤔😆] The clamour you're referring to did not yet exist when the pixii was designed i guess. The LSI project is from 2023 IIRC and the first Pixii must have been designed in 2018 or something. See: https://www.lesnumeriques.com/photo/rencontre-avec-david-barth-createur-pixii-a4069.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted February 14 Share #492 Posted February 14 vor 52 Minuten schrieb 3D-Kraft.com: There were already several suggestions described in this thread. Won't repeat it here. Thanks for the enlightening discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raizans Posted February 14 Share #493 Posted February 14 I guess it depends on how much stock you put in Leica Rumors, but do you think any product managers or engineers or whoever at Leica is second guessing themselves about developing an EVF-M? 😂 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrichie Posted February 14 Share #494 Posted February 14 46 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said: Not really. When I walked into a camera shop after my Nikon kit was stolen (F5 and lenses), I was in the rare position of having money and looking for a new system. I was new to digital. Now, you could say that my background was the elegant simplicity of FEs and FMs, But my interest was photography. The Canon 5D Mk II was the latest and greatest. Nikons were not quite up there. Holding a 5D II in my hands with I can’t remember which lens - menus, random buttons and huge AF lenses - I put the camera down and walked out of the shop. Further research, I found the M9 - manual focus, lovely lenses and direct control. The rangefinder was most certainly an afterthought . The whole point of the M system is its quality, very careful thought and simplicity of its operation. Not any one thing. Exactly. I am unsure why there are so many comments fixated on a certain feature. However my attraction to the M was everything except the rangefinder. I have no issues focussing with it, but framing is an issue whilst wearing glasses, which is more than annoying and there is absolutely no reason why an EVF M cannot exist and certainly can be more technology based / modern and the manual M can be the 'essential'. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaR Posted February 14 Share #495 Posted February 14 I don't know if I'll be tempted by the EVF M, when it arrives. Right now, I have two digital Ms and an SL2-S. When I bought the SL2-S, I didn't think I'd like using it with M lenses—I figured it would be my 'return to AF' camera after years of being M only. But actually, owning it has taught me that, like @costa43, I just don't like autofocus, especially the distractions it creates in the viewfinder. So, despite my initial plans, I now only use the camera with M lenses. And to @charlesphoto99's point about the M being an instinctive camera, I find that I enjoy the SL2-S most when I don't punch in to confirm focus but just work quickly, judging focus by what I see in the viewfinder. Exactly like how I work with an M. The issue with this approach is that it works best with lenses that are wide open and 50mm or longer. That creates the most contrast between the in-focus plane and the rest of the image. So the result is that I have a 50 Summilux ASPH, set to f/1.4, almost permanently attached to the SL2-S. Since getting the camera, the number of shots I take with that lens at f/1.4 has gone up by a factor of ten. Having the EVF has also made me use my 75mm, 90mm, and 135mm lenses way more. And yet the majority of my photography is still done with 28mm or 35mm lenses—and at those focal lengths, it gets difficult to tell what's in focus just by eye in an EVF. And, actually, I'm quite proficient at nailing focus with, say, a 90mm lens using the rangefinder. So, the on-balance outcome is that the RF + OVF is more useful to me than the EVF. If I had to choose between an EVF M and an OVF M, I'd choose the OVF. There are only two situations in which I really prefer the EVF. Sometimes I'm trying to focus on complex moving scenes using long lenses—like, sports photography—and it's just more fun to use the SL2-S. And then there's darkness. The SL2-S makes it so easy to judge exposure perfectly, and it has a feature called Enhanced Live View which basically boosts the brightness of the image in the viewfinder to stupendous levels until you press the shutter. It makes shooting perfectly exposed pictures in challenging lighting incredibly easy, while preserving the manual experience. So, tl;dr, I think I could be in the market for an EVF M, but only as an adjunct to an OVF M. And that sounds like an expensive proposition, which means I probably won't do it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D-Kraft.com Posted February 14 Share #496 Posted February 14 vor 1 Stunde schrieb UliWer: You shouldn't cry "wrong" (again and again) when you are not right. "Messsucher" doesn't mean rangefinder. The word for rangefinder in German is "Entfernungsmesser". Uli, we are both native German speakers, so when you say, I am wrong, this seems to require a correction. It depends on the direction of translation. If you translate "Messsucher" to English,, you get "rangefinder" (but not "optomechanical rangefinder"). So I am not wrong. If you translate "rangefinder" to German, you get "Entfernungsmesser", which only shows, the English language has no exact counterpart. But as we are discussing, what "Messsucher" of a German manufacturer describes , you cannot start from the less apt English expression. In more detail, "Messsucher" could be described as "Sucher mit einer integrierten Funktion zur Entfernungsmessung" or "viefinder with an integrated option to measure distance". Also this does not necessarily mean, that this must be optomechanical. vor 46 Minuten schrieb Steve Ash: Thanks for the enlightening discussion. Steve, you can't blame me for this thread being long and for not reading it completely. But I'm still happy to help you with a few references: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/419143-evf-m-rumoured/?do=findComment&comment=5754141 https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/419143-evf-m-rumoured/page/9/#comment-5755262 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. G Posted February 14 Share #497 Posted February 14 7 hours ago, Smudgerer said: Excuse my ignorance, but what is " the zf manual focus confirmation with eye detect......" on the Nikon? Is it as it used to be in the film F4/5/6's a dot of a green light that illuminates when a chosen segment is in focus?...........If so, yes that would be a very handy feature to have in a prospective EV-M, even a SL too I would guess. There is a small square that tracks the eye in manual focus and when it is in focus the box will turn green. It can also be used with a manually placed focus point. In addition, with some lenses, the shutter can be released by the camera as soon as critical focus is achieved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted February 14 Share #498 Posted February 14 1 hour ago, Dr. G said: In addition, with some lenses, the shutter can be released by the camera as soon as critical focus is achieved. What about the “decisive moment”? It doesn't occur just because you've achieved focus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. G Posted February 14 Share #499 Posted February 14 3 minutes ago, evikne said: What about the “decisive moment”? It doesn't occur just because you've achieved focus. It's just an option - not a requirement. It's not activated by default. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 14 Share #500 Posted February 14 On a number of cameras we have pre-release which enables the user to take the shot up to 1.5 seconds before the shutter is pressed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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