Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}

[jonoslack]

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9 minutes ago, Smogg said:

It’s not clear why Leica managed to do everything well with the Q3, but not with the M11. Lack of cooperation with Panasonic in the second case?

Well - you say, but I didn't like the colour of the Q3 enough not to buy one (after 6 months testing), whereas I really like the M11 colour - especially for skin tones.

it just isn't that simple

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[jonoslack]

3 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I haven't heard anyone complain about the magenta cast in the SL3, which is structurally closer to the M11 than the Q3. I don't have it, so I can't check it myself.

I do have the SL3 and will do a comparison - but I certainly prefer the M11 colour to the S3 as well!

[Smogg]

5 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I do have the SL3 and will do a comparison - but I certainly prefer the M11 colour to the S3 as well!

I think it's normal for us to like different camera colors, but I think it shouldn't be achieved by having the wrong white balance. Camera colors should be compared using the same (corrected) white balance.

I want white to be white, gray to be gray and black to be black so that any camera will produce a neutral color when r=b=g. Our eyes are very aware of falsehood when almost gray asphalt ceases to be so, or when a person in white clothes becomes magenta.

[jonoslack]

5 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I think it's normal for us to like different camera colors, but I think it shouldn't be achieved by having the wrong white balance. Camera colors should be compared using the same (corrected) white balance.

Well, looking at my library I've been shooting with the M11 since July 2019, and I doubt if I've fiddled with the magenta on more than a couple of dozen photos . . . . and nobody has ever told me that my images are magenta! The biggest difference from previous M cameras is that I now never have to change the red luminance for skin tones - when previously I almost always had to!

 

[jonoslack]

4 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I think it's normal for us to like different camera colors, but I think it shouldn't be achieved by having the wrong white balance. Camera colors should be compared using the same (corrected) white balance.

I want white to be white, gray to be gray and black to be black so that any camera will produce a neutral color when r=b=g. Our eyes are very aware of falsehood when almost gray asphalt ceases to be so, or when a person in white clothes becomes magenta.

Of course, but when you take pictures outdoors the colour temperature always changes wildly across the frame (especially in bright light) so a perfect white in average light will be blue in shade and yellow in the sun . . . . and I've shot a number of weddings with my M11 and NEVER had magenta clothes!!!

 

Edited May 30, 2024 by jonoslack

[M11 for me]

A white wall reflects the light fully differently when there is sun shining onto that wall or when we have a rainy day. As consequence we could conclude that there is not just one white. My wall looks differently every day depending of the wether and also the time of the day. And here the problem starts . . . . the RAL number stays unchanged 😵‍💫

It's a very tricky theme . . .

 

[elmars]

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vor 56 Minuten schrieb Smogg:

This does not work on a series of frames, the tint differs within one walk/shoot

Not if You shoot with fixed white balance.

[jonoslack]

21 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

A white wall reflects the light fully differently when there is sun shining onto that wall or when we have a rainy day. As consequence we could conclude that there is not just one white. My wall looks differently every day depending of the wether and also the time of the day. And here the problem starts . . . . the RAL number stays unchanged 😵‍💫

It's a very tricky theme . . .

 

and when the sun is shining on part of your white wall, that is a different colour from the part it isn't shining on! So you will have different white balances in the same image - which is why I don't like using AWB!

I had a look back at some wedding shoots just to check on the white clothes issue, and the images all have magenta values of around +18 - +24, and whites are perfectly white - there are no magenta whites!

[don daniel]

@jonoslack: Your landscape pics above are too small for me to judge. But clearly I like the tint in the firs pictures on the left most. But temperature seems too high for me. Clouds do not have to be neutral in color. They often are a bit blue if there is still some blue sky.

In this shot here I wanted to push contrasts and colors by choosing the preset Adobe landscape. If I do so, I get this (shot with AWB): Temperature: 5000, tint: +21.
Magenta explosion. Second image with corrected WB: Temperature: 5000, tint: +10. 
 

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[jonoslack]

27 minutes ago, don daniel said:

@jonoslack: Your landscape pics above are too small for me to judge. But clearly I like the tint in the firs pictures on the left most. But temperature seems too high for me. Clouds do not have to be neutral in color. They often are a bit blue if there is still some blue sky.

In this shot here I wanted to push contrasts and colors by choosing the preset Adobe landscape. If I do so, I get this (shot with AWB): Temperature: 5000, tint: +21.
Magenta explosion. Second image with corrected WB: Temperature: 5000, tint: +10. 
 

 

 

Okay - here I've done the same:

This is actually a good idea of why I like the colour from the M11 so much - that blue is the colour of our blue skies - not too much Cyan

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Adobe Landscape

[LBJ2]

37 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Okay - here I've done the same:

This is actually a good idea of why I like the colour from the M11 so much - that blue is the colour of our blue skies - not too much Cyan

Adobe Standard:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Adobe Landscape

At a minimum, your examples explain how easy it is and or in some cases important to adjust colors to just about any preference, bias, mood or creative intent. Otherwise it's like spending on an eye-watering Italian sports car and never learning how to get it out of third gear. 

[perb]

It's not only Leica. Have a look over at getdpi.  

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index.php?threads/newly-purchased-gfx100s-has-red-tint.76155

Per

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Okay - here I've done the same:

This is actually a good idea of why I like the colour from the M11 so much - that blue is the colour of our blue skies - not too much Cyan

Adobe Standard:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Adobe Landscape

You have spots on your sensor. ☹️

[_Alex_]

Perhaps someone should start a thread about what should lovingly be called The Magenta Concern--sounds like a decent spy movie. 
 

Can we please get back to whether or not 2.1.1 fixed/improved/eliminated freeze issues or file corruption issues with the M11 series?  
 

Cheers, 

-Alex

[DadDadDaddyo]

Please help me understand. I'm struck by how many variables, how many "hinge points" there are, simultaneously, in this. As a result, I'm struggling. 

I literally have no opinion, no *basis* for opinion, about any characteristic cast to the M11's treatment of colors.

But the whole thing seems fraught to me. 

I'm kind of comparing it to something I do have a pretty good understanding of: audio capture, recording, and reproduction.

There are measurable frequencies emanating from sound sources in the studio or concert hall. There are measurable characteristics to the microphones being used to capture the sounds and convert them to electrical signals. There are measurable characteristics to the circuitry in the recording system, resulting in measurable characteristics to the captured frequencies found in the recording.

Then, when we reproduce that recording, there are measurable characteristics to the reproduction circuitry, and measurable characteristics to the reproduction transducer (headphones, or speakers) that convert electrical signals back into audible sound.

If using speakers, we them run smack into the influence of measurable characteristics of the listening room, its acoustic hardness or softness, absorbtion or reflectivity, at different frequencies. 

And finally the reproduced sound arrives at my seventy-year-old Mark I calibrated eardrums.

So, then we have what's called Equalization, to dial in compensation at any of these points to deal with accentuation or attenuation resulting from the cumulative characteristics of the waypoints along the chain. 

The whole thing is fraught.

And, the clients have eardrums too, or at least, what's left of eardrums.

So, If you manage to achieve and maintain what's called "flat response" throughout the chain, and then play the recording back, perfectly flat, to the 19-year-olds who've just banged out the song (and whose ears are probable ringing), you'll be thinking, "How can they expect to hear *any* high frequencies at all with those smoking eardrums??"

But then: somebody, I guarantee it, is going to say, "Not enough bass, Man!"

This is why producers wash down antacids with their espresso.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, _Alex_ said:

Perhaps someone should start a thread about what should lovingly be called The Magenta Concern [....]

Or How to Use a Pipette to See the Light 😄

[jonoslack]

38 minutes ago, _Alex_ said:

Perhaps someone should start a thread about what should lovingly be called The Magenta Concern--sounds like a decent spy movie. 
 

Can we please get back to whether or not 2.1.1 fixed/improved/eliminated freeze issues or file corruption issues with the M11 series?  
 

Cheers, 

-Alex

Sorry Alex - I'm partly to blame here and will now shut up about colour (which I still think is great) - please see also below

30 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

My impression so far is the only issues (besides installation issues) are being reported by new accounts, and the issues presented have not been corroborated by others. Someone mentioned the German forum had some reporting issues, but I don’t know if those were from trusted members or not.

I’m actually glad this thread has gone off on a tangent. It means the firmware is stable for us so far

I was thinking that as well - to be honest there have  been fewer freeze events than I expected, and 🤞I haven't seen any corruption

I do think that it would have been good if Leica had suggested reformatting SD cards before using the new firmware as that does seem to have caused a couple of issues.

all the best

[J.C.T.]

@jonoslack why not shoot in Kelvin? 

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Hallo,

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[marchyman]

23 hours ago, lct said:

What raw converter are you using if i may ask?

Mostly Lightroom.  But also Capture One, Affinity Photo, and Mac Preview.  I have an old version of Pixelmator around but I don't think I've ever used it with an image from my M11.

Also: I use M11 profiles created for Lr and Capture One using a Color Passport.  And my Capture One version is a rev or two old (Capture One 22).

I've been using a "fixed" white balance for a long time.   I will tweak white balance and/or colors in post when I feel the need. The sometimes slight bit of extra magenta I see in the M11 does not overly bother me.  I asked about it when I first got the camera, was told it is "normal" (e.g. some were complaining about it), and adjusted my editing appropriately.

I find these discussions interesting, but I am not clamoring for change.  I like my M11.  It is a better camera than I am a photographer -- but I can probably say that about just about any camera!

[jonoslack]

45 minutes ago, J.C.T. said:

@jonoslack why not shoot in Kelvin? 

The landscape is rubbish in Kelvin!

More seriously, I think the 'sunny' white balance in the M11 (5200K and +22) works really well for me - it's like using a particular film stock which you understand really well.