Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}

[don daniel]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

vor 23 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

Hi Don

I absolutely do like it better - however I don't use AWB in daylight, I use sunny and stick to it, and very very very rarely warm things up a little. see my post above about AWB . . . 

Fixed settings like "sunny" result in the same if not even stronger magenta bias. Often AWB results in tint +20 or +22 in daylight. "Sunny" results in tint +25. If Leica at least gave me a fixed setting that results between +10 and +15, I'd already be lucky for shooting in daylight. Artificial light is a different story: I often find the AWB really pleasing and magenta cast is not there.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jonoslack]

14 minutes ago, don daniel said:

Fixed settings like "sunny" result in the same if not even stronger magenta bias. Often AWB results in tint +20 or +22 in daylight. "Sunny" results in tint +25. If Leica at least gave me a fixed setting that results between +10 and +15, I'd already be lucky for shooting in daylight. Artificial light is a different story: I often find the AWB really pleasing and magenta cast is not there.

I often wonder if people's problems with this is looking at the +22 in Lightroom (Sunny WB) rather than looking at the colour in the image - I can't deny the Lightroom value - but I really think the colour is correct, and that Leica (or Adobe) have added that magenta value because it's what's required to get the right colour!

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by jonoslack

[LBJ2]

"Did you know?

Everyone sees color a little differently — including people who don’t have color vision deficiency

About 1 in 12 men have color vision deficiency

Most people with color vision deficiency are born with it, but sometimes it doesn’t show up until later in life"

"Does color blindness get worse with age?

Abnormal color vision increases significantly with aging -- affecting one-half or more of people in the oldest age groups, reports a study in Optometry and Vision Science, official journal of the American Academy of Optometry." 

https://www.nei.nih.gov/learn-about-eye-health/eye-conditions-and-diseases/color-blindness#:~:text=Color vision may also get,the lens of the eye).

Never mind monitor type, settings , ambient room lighting and calibrated or not. The forum question if someone sees magenta cast or not or any other color cast on a computer screen can be complicated. 

Edited May 28, 2024 by LBJ2

[TeleElmar135mm]

... and for all the affectes people (include me) Leica made the Monochromes ...

[DadDadDaddyo]

I've had both of my born-with lenses replaced as a result of cataracts. There was about a week-long period during which I had one new lens and one old one, and for the first time I could see what had become of my original eyes. 

It was shocking, appalling, even. My remaining old native-born lens was visibly yellow-brown and streaky; it was like peering through dim, wet parchment. 

After the second operation, suddenly equipped with two new, clear lenses, everything was unbelievable clean and bright looking, but my own internal auto white balance was completely messed up. It took my brain at least several days to adjust to seeng white as being white, rather than having to make it white, albeit unconsciously, in my head. 

Not sure I'd trust myself to spot a magenta cast.

But folks, just as a public service message, if you've been told that there may be cataract surgery in your future, embrace it! You won't belive, until you've had it done, what a difference it will make for your vision. 

[gotium]

How strange, this suggestion of a lack of magenta cast - when I shot an M11 I fiddled with each and every shot in Lightroom to reduce the magenta cast - it was not subtle, like something you wouldn't notice.

I wonder why some of us see it and some of us don't. 

[BillCB]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I recommend the very exacting colour tests that Sean Reid of Reid Reviews has published for the M11.  If anything, he sees a cool bias. His is a pay site (well worth the money) so I cannot reproduce his findings without infringing on his copyright. I can say his conclusion is the same as mine.

[lct]

1 hour ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

But folks, just as a public service message, if you've been told that there may be cataract surgery in your future, embrace it! You won't belive, until you've had it done, what a difference it will make for your vision. 

Good advice but no difference about the so-called magenta cast here: zero before and zero after the sugery. My new implants are not from Leica but Hoya though, which could explain that 😄

 

[IkarusJohn]

Can I suggest, if anyone is having white balance issues with their cameras, that they do a manual white balance setting with a white balance card?  I used to do this all the time with my M9.

[elmars]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

I often wonder if people's problems with this is looking at the +22 in Lightroom (Sunny WB) rather than looking at the colour in the image - I can't deny the Lightroom value - but I really think the colour is correct, and that Leica (or Adobe) have added that magenta value because it's what's required to get the right colour!

 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb gotium:

I wonder why some of us see it and some of us don't. 

The magenta tint is always there, with fixed white balance it is always the same level, with AWB it varies a little. Whether it is noticed depends in part on your own viewing habits and colour taste. But it also depends very much on the subject. In my opinion, the magenta tint is unreservedly positive when taking pictures of people or landscapes. However, if there is a lot of grey (pavements, streets, buildings) then it often becomes very distracting; there are plenty of photos of this. As we don't all take the same photos, I think the tint should either be more moderate or there should be a choice. 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, elmars said:

The magenta tint is always there [...]

Please prove it. Sincerely interested.

[digiuser]

Buy a Monochrom. Problem solved 😎

[elmars]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb lct:

Please prove it. Sincerely interested.

We had this many times and You followed these threads as I know: Set Your white balance to cloudy and tint in LR will always stand on +20 to +22. Then take a Nikon/Canon/Sony or even a Q3 or M10 and look again for tint.

[Smogg]

In order not to be unfounded, over the next few weeks I will try to take a lot of comparative shots on three cameras: Leica M11, X2D and Ricoh GR IIIx. On Jono's advice, I won't be using AWB on the M11. I’ll even be curious: can you guess what these frames were shot on, based only on the white balance.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, Smogg said:

In order not to be unfounded, over the next few weeks I will try to take a lot of comparative shots on three cameras: Leica M11, X2D and Ricoh GR IIIx. On Jono's advice, I won't be using AWB on the M11. I’ll even be curious: can you guess what these frames were shot on, based only on the white balance.

The GRIIIx pictures will all be brown 😂 - I'm going to do some SL3 / M10 / M11 comparisons too. . . . . 

[Smogg]

30 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

The GRIIIx pictures will all be brown 😂 - I'm going to do some SL3 / M10 / M11 comparisons too. . . . . 

Do you think I should use a camera profile or Adobe standard for all cameras for this test?
Usually when processing I always start with Adobe standard except for X2D, where I leave Camera standard half the time.

 

And one more question: If the problem lies in a defective white balance detector that some M11 cameras were supposedly equipped with, then by not using AWB we completely remove that detector from the equation?

Edited May 29, 2024 by Smogg

[jgeenen]

I don‘t think there is any issue with Leica M11 white balance at all. Yes, many of us (including me) observe a magenta cast that is mostly visible in overcast daylight. And yes, it is possible to manipulate this cast with adjusting the magenta tint slider.  But I found it is better to adjust the curves for red and blue midtones (as I described elsewhere) - because it almost never overcorrects the color tones (at least to my eyes). 

I examined some raw files in irident raw developer which allows much better control and fine tuning and I looked into the raw headers of Leica M11 DNG, which show some specific different color correction  values in undeveloped RAW compared to older cameras‘ DNG. Although I am not an expert in DNG format specifications, this hints to me to the following:

a) Leica wanted a specific tone response and created this look, some of us find too magenta heavy.

b) This Leica decision is not part of the white balance settings in the RAW but to more fundamental recipes in the DNG. The „magenta tint“ slider is not the root cause, it is just one way to adjust the image to a personal taste.

c) although different raw converters out of the box are rendering M11 DNG slightly different, they all show the Leica intended look (no wonder- the embedded DNG  parameters are meant to instruct the RAW converter)

 

[colint544]

Given that everyone's monitors and eyes are calibrated differently, and that any image posted on this forum needs to be a brutally compressed jpeg, there's probably not a meaningful comparison here.

But this is what I see. A picture taken yesterday - ISO 80, 1/1000th F4, 28mm Summicron mk1. Colours straight from the camera in the first picture, and adjusted to my taste in the second. I perceive that as a slight magenta cast. I don't find it unpleasant, and it's easy to correct.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

3 hours ago, elmars said:

We had this many times and You followed these threads as I know: Set Your white balance to cloudy and tint in LR will always stand on +20 to +22. Then take a Nikon/Canon/Sony or even a Q3 or M10 and look again for tint.

Sorry but again, you're generalizing your findings with LR to the entire world. Not everybody uses LR, or other Adobe software, as you know. To be a fact, as you're trying to demonstrate, the so-called magenta cast should be obvious non only on LR but on other software as well.

[colint544]

I should also mention also that I use Photoshop, and I had the camera set to 5500K white balance.