Pre loved

[AndrewPiper]

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Hi guys.. first time here..what a great forum!

Ive read extensively about a fixed 35mm lens for a potentially incoming M11 and my question is this..  Is a pre loved lens a good idea from peoples experience here please? Im swimming in the pre loved pond for both camera and lens. Places to look for used lenses also would be appreciated.

 

Thanks and kind regards from New Zealand.

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[jaapv]

First of all, if you buy from a trusted source there is absolutely nothing wrong with used lenses.
It all depends on what type of rendering you expect from a lens. Over the last hundred years or so Leica has built dozens of different 35 mm (and other focal lengths the same 😉) lenses, all with their own character and all worth using. My personal favourite is a Summicron 35 asph, but others will suggest other lenses. And then there are plenty of other worthy brands to explore, from Nikon and Canon LTM lenses, Zeiss ZM ones,  to present-day Voigtländers and Chinese brands. I would suggest that you still have quite a bit of reading up to do - and you'll end up with a cherished collection in the end.  Happy journey!

[Warton]

2 hours ago, AndrewPiper said:

Hi guys.. first time here..what a great forum!

Ive read extensively about a fixed 35mm lens for a potentially incoming M11 and my question is this..  Is a pre loved lens a good idea from peoples experience here please? Im swimming in the pre loved pond for both camera and lens. Places to look for used lenses also would be appreciated.

 

Thanks and kind regards from New Zealand.

I hate the word pre loved. Used is used, whoever loved it or not has nothing to do with you.

[AndrewPiper]

Really.. are we that clever with replies here. If you dont have anything positive to say why contribute at all.

[Rollei35]

9 minutes ago, AndrewPiper said:

Really.. are we that clever with replies here. If you dont have anything positive to say why contribute at all.

In order to be able to think, people have to take the risk of being offensive.

You'd better to bear with critic thinking. Everything in this world is not glory.

[RexGig0]

A pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH lens was the “bait” that lured me to finally add the Leica M system, six years ago, in April 2018. I tried this lens on pre-owned and demonstrator M9 and M Type 240 cameras, while being coached by wonderfully patient employees, at Houston Camera Exchange, an official Leica dealer, and pro-oriented full-line camera store, in Texas. I did not buy a new Leica M lens until mid-2023, a Re-Edition Steel Rim Summilux-M 35mm. My several Leica M lenses that I bought pre-owned, 24mm to 90mm, are every bit as precious, to me, as the one I bought new. 

My first Leica M camera body, an M10, was bought new, along with that first lens. My next M camera was a pre-owned M Type 246 Monochrom. My income being reduced, due to retirement, it is unlikely that I will buy another new M camera.

I am a believer in buying pre-owned lenses from a trustworthy store/ dealer, and prefer to inspect and test-shoot, in person, if practical to do so. I have no experience with sellers in the southern hemisphere. I have bought lenses from some trustworthy Japanese sellers, such as MAP Camera, through their eBay store, though they were not Leica lenses, that I recall.

Edited April 15, 2024 by RexGig0

[adan]

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4 hours ago, AndrewPiper said:

Hi guys.. first time here..what a great forum!

Ive read extensively about a fixed 35mm lens for a potentially incoming M11 and my question is this..  Is a pre loved lens a good idea from peoples experience here please? Im swimming in the pre loved pond for both camera and lens. Places to look for used lenses also would be appreciated.

 

Thanks and kind regards from New Zealand.

As a different Andy Piper 🤪 - I can say I've never bought anything except pre-"loved" Leica M lenses. 👍

(Although I have no idea whether they were or are loved or not - the fact someone is getting a divorce from one implies they didn't love it enough. But I count that as their loss and my gain.  😃)

M lenses, especially older ones (pre-FLE, or about 2002 or so), are about as simple a mechanism as you can find in a lens (no internal shutter, no AF drive, no stop-down lever, no electronics, no cams except for focus, no IS), so there is not that much that can go wrong with them.

But - I do make sure I can try any lens i might get, on my cameras physically, just to make sure its tolerances play nice with my M bodies' rangefinder tolerances. And that is especially true for lenses longer than 50mm, with wider apertures. Simplicity and precision are two different things.

And there are other things to check for - dents, scratched glass, fungus or fungus damage, smooth operation/functioning lubricants. Pre-loved M lenses can be up to 70 years old.

At a rough guess, of the hundreds of used M lenses I have checked out over 23 years, only about 3% have shown a problem - and mostly that was just grease from 1964 or 1972 or similar, that had never been cleaned out and replaced since they left the factory.

I reject far more lenses simply because they are not the M lens for me, ergonomically or in imaging - but they functioned just fine.

[AndrewPiper]

Thank you to Adan,Jaapv and RexGig0 for your considered reply, it is appreciated.

[evikne]

The very first Leica lens I bought was brand new from the store. The little red hemisphere had fallen off and rattled loose in the box. And there was oil on the aperture blades. I have since bought several used Leica lenses that have been in better condition than that one.

Edited April 15, 2024 by evikne

[250swb]

Buy a second hand 35mm or 50mm Summicron as a datum point and take the emotion out of the decision. Trying to second guess the 'rendering' of a vast range of lenses (especially if looking at other peoples photographs for validation) will have your head spinning. Once you have your datum point all other decisions become far, far easier, like which lens to add next, would you like a faster lens, do you want a portrait lens, etc. All the lovey-dovey stuff can wait.

[LocalHero1953]

To the OP re some of the early replies. Some posts are more informative about the poster than what they say. Ignore and move on. Most of us are more welcoming.

Re your question - you may have to wait for some members from your country and region to reply. I suspect the market size for used Leica lenses in NZ is not as big as UK and the rest of Europe (where I normally go fishing), or the USA. I often buy used lenses, but the further afield the better the credentials I look for in the seller. In desperation I have bought large format lenses site-unseen from unknown sellers in Japan (couldn't find what I wanted elsewhere), and had no problems at all. 

Edited April 15, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Anbaric]

All my Leica gear, barring the odd strap and lens cap, was bought used and problems have been rare. You should be able to catch any major issues with a lens pretty easily. Check that it's fine mechanically, shine a light through it from both ends from various angles looking for haze or fungus or scratches, and look for any oil or corroson on the aperture blades. A little dust is to be expected. Then put it on a camera, take some photos and examine them critically for any focus issues etc. Buy from someone who offers a guarantee or at least a decent return window. A digital M is more complex to test and I wouldn't buy one without at least a 6 month guarantee from a reputable dealer. Have a look through forum posts for issues some people have reported with the M11, like freezing and file corruption and do enough testing to make sure your camera isn't affected. You don't want a 'pre hated' camera that someone has unloaded because it was problematic. I get the impression the M10 may have fewer issues, but it's always hard to judge how common glitches are from forums where people are more likely to post about problems than cameras that just work.  Go through the manual checking that all the functions work. Examine photos critically for any sensor issues (take some shots of a light uniform surface or a cloudless sky well away from the sun with the lens stopped all the way down, which should make blemishes easy to spot).

Edited April 15, 2024 by Anbaric

[pippy]

12 hours ago, AndrewPiper said:

...my question is this..  Is a pre loved lens a good idea from peoples experience here please?...

Hello, Andy, and welcome to the Forum; I trust you will have a wnderful and interesting time here!

Yes; buying on the s/h market is perfectly fine but there are a few simple suggestions to heed in order to make the search less hit-and-miss never mind downright unpleasant.

If possible buy from a respected dealership with a customer-friendly returns policy. As we are, by definition, considering camera gear which is towards the more valuable end of the market most dealers (IMX) who sell Leica equipment are very honest and friendly in this respect.

Secondly - if possible (which might not be the case depending on exactly where you live) - it is normally a good idea to try items out prior to purchase. If this is not possible things are not going to be too bad; the main issues will be more due to having 'lost' some time and, possibly, a bit of a faff in having both the goods and the purchase sum returned.

Thirdly read up a bit about the different natures of any lenses which might be under your consideration. As Jaap has mentioned Leitz / Leica have produced a fair number of different 35mm lenses over the last 95 years (all of which, incidentally, might be used on an M11) and, Leitz having employed different optical designs for them over the years, there is a difference in how they will render an image. Essentially it comes down to one question; do you prefer images which have a more 'Vintage' character or do you prefer something more modern and images which are more 'crisp'? It will come as no surprise to hear that older lenses tend to belong to the first of those groups and more recent offerings are in the latter.

When assessing older lenses there are, primarily(*), two things - optically-speaking - to look out for and these are Haze and Fungus. Most reputable s/h dealers (again; IMX) are quite upfront and honest with their descriptions. If you are looking at acquiring, for instance, an older 35mm f2.0 Summicron in M-mount bear in mind that the earliest versions are now some 66 years old...

Where Haze and Fungus are concerned the two 'problems' are quite different in terms of their associated 'Caveats'. A small amount of haze is unlikely to have much of an effect over image sharpness. More probable is that there will be a slight reduction in contrast which can always be remedied in Post-Production. As the amount of Haze increases so will the amount of issues which, potentially, will lead to a loss of image quality. Fungus is a different matter. If a lens has been damaged by fungus but the fungus has been neutralised the lens might continue to be able to produce fine images. Unfortunately it is not easy to determine whether any fungus has been eradicated completely and, under the right (wrong!) conditions it can continue to eat away at the surfaces of the surface(s) of optics within a lens.

FWIW my own stance is that whilst I would have no worries about owning / using a lens which had a bit of haze I would not even consider purchasing any lens which had suffered from fungus.

In the first instance - and if you like a modern, clean look to your images - it might be wiser to look out for one of the more recent Leica lenses. The chances of picking up a lens with 'issues' would be vastly reduced. The modern (since 1996?) ASPH Summicron is just about as perfect a lens as it's likely to find. It's performance is first-rate; it is light and it is tiny. Just FWIW and to give you a rough outline of this version of the lens here is a review (by everyone's favourite reviewer 😸);

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/35mm-f2-asph.htm

If you have any questions about this or any other lens (or camera!) just ask; we are always here to offer help and advice.

As far as some 'terminology' goes (if I might be so bold) I suggest that you don't take any offence; there are many words / expressions which I use all the time that will annoy members and, of course, vice versa ('Iconic' being a particularly annoying example). In the end it matters not a whit so long as the main point(s) comes across clearly.

Best of luck in your quest!

Philip.

* Minor scratches on the front element of certain lenses is another but this is mainly an issue only for some particular lenses and is a different story involving 'soft' glass / susceptible coatings.

Edited April 15, 2024 by pippy

[ianforber]

12 hours ago, AndrewPiper said:

Hi guys.. first time here..what a great forum!

Ive read extensively about a fixed 35mm lens for a potentially incoming M11 and my question is this..  Is a pre loved lens a good idea from peoples experience here please? Im swimming in the pre loved pond for both camera and lens. Places to look for used lenses also would be appreciated.

 

Thanks and kind regards from New Zealand.

Welcome to the forum! I don’t know what the Leica dealership network is like in NZ or whether you intend to source used kit from domestic sources or not. Personally, I bought a new Voigtlander lens to see if I liked that focal length because even as a new lens it was significantly cheaper than most Leica alternatives and would keep its value reasonable well should I decide to sell it and “upgrade” to a Leica. 

[lct]

12 hours ago, AndrewPiper said:

Is a pre loved lens a good idea from peoples experience here please? Im swimming in the pre loved pond for both camera and lens. Places to look for used lenses also would be appreciated.

Good idea if you buy from reputable dealers offering possibly a warranty. Many of these dealers can be found on e**y. Mine come mostly from Germany and Austria. Please feel free to PM me if you don't know them already. Those dealers can be a bit more expensive but some "pre loved" bodies and lenses have been loved so much that they have lost the freshness of their youth so  they need to be cuddled by professional hands 😄

[RexGig0]

Sorry, I forgot to say the most important part, earlier: Welcome to the forum! 🙂

My experience with Leica-brand 35mm lenses is limited. I bought a very clean, well-preserved Summaron 3.5cm f/3.5 lens, soon after I started using the M system. The seller was an eBay seller, with much positive feedback, and this is a lens that tended to sell for a few hundred dollars, at the time, so, I calculated that the risk was small. This lens is loved by some, but receives little strong praise for being amazing. Optically, I have found it to be, well, vintage, but with no strong character. I had originally intended to concentrate on using the 50mm focal length, so, a modest 35mm seemed adequate, at the time. I do not know how this modest lens would perform on an M11, at 60MP. (My Leica M experience is limited to 24MP.)

The one Leica-brand lens I have bought new is the “Re-Edition” Steel Rim Summilux-M 35mm, which does have vintage “character,” so, is not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. There are lengthy discussion threads of this one, here, in this section of the forum.

A reason that that I have used Leica-brand 35mm lenses relatively little is that my 35mm shooting has been dominated by the Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1.4 ZM. Many Leica shooters will dislike the modern “Zeiss Look” of its images, but, I was well-acquainted with Zeiss SLR/DSLR lenses, before I added the Leica M system. This Distagon is quite large, for an M-mount lens, but, its weight is reasonable, so, I like this one. I tend to like to grip a lens barrel with my left hand, while moving about, so, see a lens with some amount of heft to be a convenient “grip accessory.” 😉

I have test-shot a friend’s Cosina Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f/1.4 II MC lens, during a meet-up at a coffee shop. This is a nicely compact, well-made lens that has much of the character and charm of the Leica pre-aspheric Summilux-M 35mm lenses. This Nokton is also available in a single-coated SC version, for even more vintage character in images.

Edited April 15, 2024 by RexGig0

[Alberti]

Most of my lenses are second hand ‘occasions’.
+ Most are amazing. Some had to be cleaned lubricated and aligned, which I took into account when buying. Vintage is often a treasure trove. 
- I had problems with a couple of minty modern second hand just because I noticed why they were ‘like mint’ - for instance noticeable focus shift close-up (50mm maybe ex-factory?) or inconsistent focus (28mm possibly with stuck float, did it fall?). They were pre-hated! As regards the 50, I should have taken more time to get the ‘hang’ of it, not get nervous (the 14 days return time can be short).

And several of my m-bodies were second hand too , over the years. These were all good and excellent. 

• Pre-loved. sure. A good name. I traded in my really excellent 35mm Summicron IV against a Summilux. You don’t trade-in the bad lenses. Makes no sense. 

Edited April 15, 2024 by Alberti

[hansvons]

16 hours ago, jaapv said:

My personal favourite is a Summicron 35 asph,

Mine too.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[hansvons]

17 hours ago, AndrewPiper said:

Places to look for used lenses also would be appreciated.

The Summarit 35mm is a superb lens and a bargain for what you get. It was designed for digital sensors and is a modern aspherical lens design. You cannot get a sharper Leica 35mm lens for the money, only the APO will outperform it. I own it besides other 35mm lenses (also the excellent, modern character 35mm Summicron ASPH lens). It surely won't get cheaper and will know only one way, and that's up.  The dealer in this link is precisely what one would call a reputable seller. He's not the cheapest, but one of the rare best. There are others, of course. I'm not affiliated, only a happy customer.

 

 

 

[KFo]

Of 18 lenses that I have, 8 are used and one is NOS.  Only had one issue and that lens was repaired by Leica for free (90 f/4 Macro Elmarit-M). 

There is a reason for this though, I prefer the way some old lenses draw, so that is my life.  I will casually observe, that buying new Leica lenses can be an exercise in pain management and I have done this 9 times.  Such is life.

Edited April 15, 2024 by KFo