M12 wishlist

[Smudgerer]

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Obviously the mp steeple chase works for you, it doesn't make sense to me for a number of reasons nor do I like the problems dealing with the larger files, in and out of camera, where the results I see and get with my M10-R for instance aren't really that much more of a benefit when compared with the M10-P's that I also own and use, ( and print too up to A1 sizes with both cameras in fact ). We've also beaten to death that horse concerning the price difference between going with a Leica rather than, as in your example, a Sigma FPL.........We all here know only too well that we are paying more to use Leica products than perhaps perfectly ok alternative cameras out there right now. Most Leica M users here I think go for a M because of other factors rather than more "enhanced" specifications offerings that may or may not be relevant to what they want in a camera. For myself, perhaps in a minority not for the first time, I would like Leica to do something that in past years have been excellent at and that's make high quality, long lasting and simple to use cameras.............And again, speaking personally, I have yet to see any M11 images posted that are in any way measurably better than those from a M10 series camera, technically and otherwise and I have seen no reason at all for me to step up from the M10 series as of yet. Features? I don't need more than what the M10 series offers right now, reliability and good efficient after-sales and repair service is so much higher on my wish-list from Wetzlar, ( after +5 months my M10-R is still with Leica Service for a simple warranty fix with no end date in sight ), not a megapixel and an increased feature set race that frankly Leica cannot win against other manufacturers in operational options and price too.

Edited April 18, 2024 by Smudgerer

[lct]

22 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

Obviously the mp steeple chase works for you [...]

I've been using less than 20mp cameras for several years (Digilux1, R-D1, D70, M8.2) and i still use a 24mp as backup for my M11 (M240) but i was just being realistic, or trying to be so. I simply believe that very few people, if any, would pay Leica prices for a low res camera nowadays.. but it's me😎

Edited April 18, 2024 by lct

[T25UFO]

8 minutes ago, lct said:

I simply believe that very few people, if any, would pay Leica prices for a low res camera nowadays.. but it's me😎

Not just you . . . I think you're spot on there.  Does the average photographer need more mega pixels?  No, of course not, but the MP race is market driven and it would be foolish for Leica to ignore it.  Cropping (for good or bad) is becoming the new zoom, and for that you need more MP.  

Just by way of example here is small size file, an extreme crop, which wouldn't look good if printed large but OK for a computer screen.

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[Smudgerer]

2 hours ago, lct said:

I've been using less than 20mp cameras for several years (Digilux1, R-D1, D70, M8.2) and i still use a 24mp as backup for my M11 (M240) but i was just being realistic, or trying to be so. I simply believe that very few people, if any, would pay Leica prices for a low res camera nowadays.. but it's me😎

We are all different of course in what we expect from the tools we wish to use, and how we use them to try to achieve the results we want, there's no right or wrong here and I wasn't implying that, if XXXX version whatever camera works for you but not for me, so what? I was just saying what in my experience works for what I wish to achieve in my photography and the future tools, Leica tools in this case, that I would like to see coming out of Wetzlar down the line, that's all, nothing personal I can assure you.

[Kiwimac]

I thought long and hard about this apparently simple question. 
 

I would not want anything just for the heck of it because that’s Sonyitis. 
 

So what would I want that would genuinely make the 11 better?

 

 On the assumption that nothing I suggest is detrimental to the existing functionality:

 

1) IBIS

2) Using optical wizardry to magnify the focus patch on demand

 3) As an option to 2 if it’s too hard, offering again the different magnifications of the rangefinder at purchase rather than just one. 
 

AI processing might do away with the need for IBIS as it already can to some extent when using Topaz Sharpen AI. If you could get that tech into the camera….

 Battery life will be the issue with IBIS I suspect. 
 

4) Fujifilm style film emulation options

Edited April 19, 2024 by Kiwimac

[Herman Zhang]

1. Frameline illumination window

2.Give it back the classic metering mode (It's really not that hard to just paint the middle shutter leaf grey, is it?). One of rangefinder's biggest advantage is that the shutter will instantly fire when you press the button.

3.compadibility with the dual range summicron

4.Automatic colour shift corrections for lenses like the super-angulon 21/4 

5.Give it a rotating screen(so you can hide it. Search the Nikon ZF if you don't know what I am talking about). On the back side add the MD262 styled ISO dial(so basically when you are shooting, you would idealy shoot with the screen hidden, with ISO dials facing out to remove the distractions.

6.Exposure Comp. dial in the place of M11's Iso dial

7.Give it back the film like colours from the M9 and M240

8.Add a tiny M8 styled LED screen in the place of M11's function button(next to the shutter button, which is the place of the film counter on the film cameras). Give it the function of displaying the numbers left or the exposure readings(for better waist lever shooting experience)

9.Add back the removable bottom plate.

10.Add back the two plastic strips proteccting the camera from scratches from the strap.

11.Add back M9 styled on switch, but remove the continuous mode(which is rarely used). The timer mode is quite useful on tripods when you dont't have a shutter release cable.

12. Add the M9 styled shutter mode (discreet+soft). This might not be necessary because M11's pre-existing shutter is already very quited, but I thought that it would be a very cool feature to add.

13.Maybe a mechanically cocked shutter like the epson RD-1? A lot of people will be against this idea, I can imagine.

14.I don't really care what sensor they use. I wouldn't even mind if they slap the M240's onto the M12. Don't give it such a high pixel count, as the rangefinder system is not accurate enough to put the focusing point perfectly onto the focal plane. Or at least give it an option to merge multiple pixels into one like the M11, giving it options for something like 24MP. I do care about the dynamic range because I kept getting blown highlights while trying to get my subjects in the correct exposure on my M240.

15.Give it a real brass body, even for the black ones. Also, if people really want it to be light, just make three versions:silver chrome brass,Black paint brass and black paint aluminium

16.Instant startup. I don't want to miss my descisive moment. My M240 takes 5 seconds to start up when there is around 40 GB of images in my 128GB card.

17. Give it a higher magnification finder(or at least make it an option, like the M6 0.72 and 0.85). Maybe 0.85?

18.Maybe IBIS? This would not be necessary because you can only use prime lenses on Leica(with the exception of the 16-18-21) which have a large aperture, making it easier in low light condition.

19.Please do not add video like the M240. No leica M users cares about video, which is impossible to use without AF. M is purely for stills.

20.Hopefully it has a similar weight as the M3(~500 grams)

21.Electronic+mechanical combined shutter. mechanical up to 4000 or maybe 8000, electronic beyond that. I don't really care if they have a globle shutter or conventional line to line shutter, as long as it does not give crazy rolling shutter effects like Hasselblad x1d.

Edited April 19, 2024 by Herman Zhang

[Strmbrg]

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I've been thinking for a while. But, no, I cannot figure out what or if I wish anything.
I own a M10-R, which I bought used early this year. It is my first ever M-camera. Maybe I haven't had it long enough to wish anything for the future?
Everything can be better tomorrow than anything is today. Of course. But why must it? What is the purpose, besides of making things better? 
When are things good enough? Good enough for WHAT?

I look at "things" in general in this simple way:

• Is there any distraction? 
• I.e. Is there something about the "thing" that disturbs me, when I use it for the purpose it is meant to have?
• Does that disturbing thing affect my intended use of the "thing"? In this case a camera.
• What is my purpose with the camera? It can of course be several things, alone or in combination. For example satisfaction of just owning it and looking at it and such; Making images with it; Challenge it by testing its limitations; Compare it with other cameras; Increase things around it as lenses, straps, accessories etc.

Image stabilisation? Well, not really necessary. I have found that I can manage to get non-disturbing blurriness even at slightly lower speeds than f/1.
Viewfinder issues of any kind? Well, no. I am so focused on creating and composing that I don't even think of anything that distracts me in that process. Maybe that it is kind of difficult to see the 28mm-framelines, but i bought a Fujifilm-branded viewfinder for that purpose. So, no, not anymore an image-making distraction.
Even lesser noise at even higher ISO's? Well, if there was, it would not harm. But the performance is already at a level that doesn't distract me.

With age, I have become less and less interested in comparing things.
Nowadays I mainly compare - or rather RELATE - things to myself and my own values and preferences.

"Is this lens sharper than that lens?" for example. It does not so very much bother me.
I do bother if the lens I have has any disturbingly bad performance or if a camera has any disturbing characteristics. Be it concerning handling or technical performance.

So, if I do not find a camera distracting me when I use it for my creativity and images, it is good enough.
And: If a COMPARISON is required to make me less satisfied with what I already have - or to realise that what I have is not the best -  then my mentality tells me NOT to compare. 🙂

Edited April 19, 2024 by Strmbrg

[charlesphoto99]

Instant start up, instant wake up. Only those two things would attract me away from my M10-R. 

[Strmbrg]

4 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Instant start up, instant wake up. Only those two things would attract me away from my M10-R. 

Yes, it is a little slow in that respect. Most of my kind of motifs wait politely however . 🙂
Maybe it is possible to have the camera in all-time-alert-setting. I don't remember.
So damned bad at remembering even the relatively sparse setting-options on this one. 😆

[Derbyshire Man]

On 4/19/2024 at 6:07 AM, Herman Zhang said:

1. Frameline illumination window

2.Give it back the classic metering mode (It's really not that hard to just paint the middle shutter leaf grey, is it?). One of rangefinder's biggest advantage is that the shutter will instantly fire when you press the button.

3.compadibility with the dual range summicron

4.Automatic colour shift corrections for lenses like the super-angulon 21/4 

5.Give it a rotating screen(so you can hide it. Search the Nikon ZF if you don't know what I am talking about). On the back side add the MD262 styled ISO dial(so basically when you are shooting, you would idealy shoot with the screen hidden, with ISO dials facing out to remove the distractions.

6.Exposure Comp. dial in the place of M11's Iso dial

7.Give it back the film like colours from the M9 and M240

8.Add a tiny M8 styled LED screen in the place of M11's function button(next to the shutter button, which is the place of the film counter on the film cameras). Give it the function of displaying the numbers left or the exposure readings(for better waist lever shooting experience)

9.Add back the removable bottom plate.

10.Add back the two plastic strips proteccting the camera from scratches from the strap.

11.Add back M9 styled on switch, but remove the continuous mode(which is rarely used). The timer mode is quite useful on tripods when you dont't have a shutter release cable.

12. Add the M9 styled shutter mode (discreet+soft). This might not be necessary because M11's pre-existing shutter is already very quited, but I thought that it would be a very cool feature to add.

13.Maybe a mechanically cocked shutter like the epson RD-1? A lot of people will be against this idea, I can imagine.

14.I don't really care what sensor they use. I wouldn't even mind if they slap the M240's onto the M12. Don't give it such a high pixel count, as the rangefinder system is not accurate enough to put the focusing point perfectly onto the focal plane. Or at least give it an option to merge multiple pixels into one like the M11, giving it options for something like 24MP. I do care about the dynamic range because I kept getting blown highlights while trying to get my subjects in the correct exposure on my M240.

15.Give it a real brass body, even for the black ones. Also, if people really want it to be light, just make three versions:silver chrome brass,Black paint brass and black paint aluminium

16.Instant startup. I don't want to miss my descisive moment. My M240 takes 5 seconds to start up when there is around 40 GB of images in my 128GB card.

17. Give it a higher magnification finder(or at least make it an option, like the M6 0.72 and 0.85). Maybe 0.85?

18.Maybe IBIS? This would not be necessary because you can only use prime lenses on Leica(with the exception of the 16-18-21) which have a large aperture, making it easier in low light condition.

19.Please do not add video like the M240. No leica M users cares about video, which is impossible to use without AF. M is purely for stills.

20.Hopefully it has a similar weight as the M3(~500 grams)

21.Electronic+mechanical combined shutter. mechanical up to 4000 or maybe 8000, electronic beyond that. I don't really care if they have a globle shutter or conventional line to line shutter, as long as it does not give crazy rolling shutter effects like Hasselblad x1d.

Mostly not interested in the above. However in respect of #2 Classic metering mode. I think it would be good to be able to specify whether to run in classic mode (centre weighted painted curtain) or multimode/spot/always open shutter in settings. Would require the old metering system in the camera but the flexibility would be good. 

The other thing I'd consider is fuji's ability to in camera re process a raw into a different form of OOC JPEG, eg you've shot high contrast B&W but could do with sending a normal contrast shot to fotos. Someone is going to tell me you can do that already in fotos...

Overall though main wish; absolutely dependable reliability.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Mostly not interested in the above. However in respect of #2 Classic metering mode. I think it would be good to be able to specify whether to run in classic mode (centre weighted painted curtain) or multimode/spot/always open shutter in settings. Would require the old metering system in the camera but the flexibility would be good. 

I assume that sensor-based metering should be able to simulate any of the "classic" mode meterings.

[Smudgerer]

On 4/19/2024 at 7:07 AM, Herman Zhang said:

1. Frameline illumination window

2.Give it back the classic metering mode (It's really not that hard to just paint the middle shutter leaf grey, is it?). One of rangefinder's biggest advantage is that the shutter will instantly fire when you press the button.

3.compadibility with the dual range summicron

4.Automatic colour shift corrections for lenses like the super-angulon 21/4 

5.Give it a rotating screen(so you can hide it. Search the Nikon ZF if you don't know what I am talking about). On the back side add the MD262 styled ISO dial(so basically when you are shooting, you would idealy shoot with the screen hidden, with ISO dials facing out to remove the distractions.

6.Exposure Comp. dial in the place of M11's Iso dial

7.Give it back the film like colours from the M9 and M240

8.Add a tiny M8 styled LED screen in the place of M11's function button(next to the shutter button, which is the place of the film counter on the film cameras). Give it the function of displaying the numbers left or the exposure readings(for better waist lever shooting experience)

9.Add back the removable bottom plate.

10.Add back the two plastic strips proteccting the camera from scratches from the strap.

11.Add back M9 styled on switch, but remove the continuous mode(which is rarely used). The timer mode is quite useful on tripods when you dont't have a shutter release cable.

12. Add the M9 styled shutter mode (discreet+soft). This might not be necessary because M11's pre-existing shutter is already very quited, but I thought that it would be a very cool feature to add.

13.Maybe a mechanically cocked shutter like the epson RD-1? A lot of people will be against this idea, I can imagine.

14.I don't really care what sensor they use. I wouldn't even mind if they slap the M240's onto the M12. Don't give it such a high pixel count, as the rangefinder system is not accurate enough to put the focusing point perfectly onto the focal plane. Or at least give it an option to merge multiple pixels into one like the M11, giving it options for something like 24MP. I do care about the dynamic range because I kept getting blown highlights while trying to get my subjects in the correct exposure on my M240.

15.Give it a real brass body, even for the black ones. Also, if people really want it to be light, just make three versions:silver chrome brass,Black paint brass and black paint aluminium

16.Instant startup. I don't want to miss my descisive moment. My M240 takes 5 seconds to start up when there is around 40 GB of images in my 128GB card.

17. Give it a higher magnification finder(or at least make it an option, like the M6 0.72 and 0.85). Maybe 0.85?

18.Maybe IBIS? This would not be necessary because you can only use prime lenses on Leica(with the exception of the 16-18-21) which have a large aperture, making it easier in low light condition.

19.Please do not add video like the M240. No leica M users cares about video, which is impossible to use without AF. M is purely for stills.

20.Hopefully it has a similar weight as the M3(~500 grams)

21.Electronic+mechanical combined shutter. mechanical up to 4000 or maybe 8000, electronic beyond that. I don't really care if they have a globle shutter or conventional line to line shutter, as long as it does not give crazy rolling shutter effects like Hasselblad x1d.

This sounds like three or four different cameras tipped into a blender then compressed into an M shape, what could possibly go wrong?.............Sorry, no offense meant but there's nothing on that list that floats my M wish-list boat, sinks it more like. Leica please just de-complicate the M so it can work simply as it's forebears used to, only release new versions when the firmware is well sorted and oh yes not before time fix customer service please. Not too much to ask, what?

[Strmbrg]

Why not a digital M without exposure meter? I mean, without as much as possible.
Combine the lack of exposure meter with the lack of screen and we are on the right way to make the camera simple and the photography complicated. 
👍

[IkarusJohn]

I suspect metering off the shutter curtain is gone forever.

For reasons which Leica knows best (get used to that idea, if you haven’t already spotted this approach), the little sensor in the throat of the mount was cknsidered to be a problem.  Removing it gave more space inside the mount, and simplified what is a tight area anyway.  It’s gone, and I don;t see it coming back.

That left metering off the live sensor as the only practical option - hence the distintive open-closed-open-closed-open  shutter action of the M11.  If you are a buyer of a future digital M, get used to it.

As to the hybrid suggestion, you can get a good idea of how this would worl already - the M10 series cameras have the traditional centre-weighted metering off the shutter; if you then add the Visoflex, the shutter opens, the sensor is live and metering is done in almost the same way as the M11, along with the shutter action.

If you use exposure simulation (also on the SL), then you do away with what the camera thinks the exposure should look like (referenced back to 18% neutral grey) and expose in the way which suits you best.  With improved sensor performance, any errors can and will be adjusted in post.

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

I suspect metering off the shutter curtain is gone forever.

For reasons which Leica knows best (get used to that idea, if you haven’t already spotted this approach), the little sensor in the throat of the mount was cknsidered to be a problem.  Removing it gave more space inside the mount, and simplified what is a tight area anyway.  It’s gone, and I don;t see it coming back.

That left metering off the live sensor as the only practical option - hence the distintive open-closed-open-closed-open  shutter action of the M11.  If you are a buyer of a future digital M, get used to it.

As to the hybrid suggestion, you can get a good idea of how this would worl already - the M10 series cameras have the traditional centre-weighted metering off the shutter; if you then add the Visoflex, the shutter opens, the sensor is live and metering is done in almost the same way as the M11, along with the shutter action.

If you use exposure simulation (also on the SL), then you do away with what the camera thinks the exposure should look like (referenced back to 18% neutral grey) and expose in the way which suits you best.  With improved sensor performance, any errors can and will be adjusted in post.

Didn't realise that, it is indeed what I meant. The ability to have a standard shutter sound and performance or a sewing machine with better metering! Personally I'm not that bothered.

[costa43]

On 4/18/2024 at 3:06 PM, lct said:

I've been using less than 20mp cameras for several years (Digilux1, R-D1, D70, M8.2) and i still use a 24mp as backup for my M11 (M240) but i was just being realistic, or trying to be so. I simply believe that very few people, if any, would pay Leica prices for a low res camera nowadays.. but it's me😎

I think your point is valid. I do not think Leica will sell as many units if the flagship is significantly lower res than the m11 in its current form. They would need to shift the goalposts and introduce a different M to what we know. I can see a circa 24mp-33mp with global shutter allowing space for ibis selling well though. 

Edited April 22, 2024 by costa43

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

That left metering off the live sensor as the only practical option - hence the distintive open-closed-open-closed-open  shutter action of the M11.  If you are a buyer of a future digital M, get used to it.

That is the standard mechanical shutter operation for mirrorless cameras. If Leica could add EFCS, then the operation would be open-closed-open. 

[IkarusJohn]

57 minutes ago, SrMi said:

That is the standard mechanical shutter operation for mirrorless cameras. If Leica could add EFCS, then the operation would be open-closed-open. 

Not necessarily the standard.  Your X2D doesn’t do this.

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not necessarily the standard.  Your X2D doesn’t do this.

X2D's leaf shutter does open-close-open-close-open. Doesn't it?

P2P's analysis determined that ISO 50 is outside the normal analog range.

Edited April 22, 2024 by SrMi

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[Derbyshire Man]

Was commenting in another thread about multiple spot metering;

Quote

Exactly how I did things with the T90 I had when I was 21 and the 1v when I was, er, quite a bit older! Spot meter highlight, shadow and grey, use the adjustment to decide what I wanted where in the dynamic range, the little triangles moving up and down to display. All of that was done with Leica stile LEDs and f stop was also displayed. I'd love to see that, even accepting the f stop would be only an approximation.

 

That and f-stop rough indication would be great. That is crazy 1986 technology though.

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