M12 wishlist

[Jon Warwick]

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What I most like about the recent Ms is less the rangefinder - and more the tradition of clearly presented physical dials (aperture ring / shutter dial / ISO dial) + manual focus + light weight / small size. I feel like I’m technically needing to “work” for the image when I use an M, not just pressing a button, which is gratifying in an automated world.

For me, the viewfinder is secondary. I’d actually prefer an M with an EVF to constantly view the histogram and for much more accuracy when framing. Zooming in to manually focus on an EVF is also a bit like using a loupe on large format ground glass (IMHO), which I like as part of the physical process of taking the image.

Why not an SL for me? Given the items I list in paragraph one. For now, I use the M11 with the Visoflex 2 instead. 

80-100mp, with triple resolution, EVF, identical size to existing Ms, IBIS nice but less essential for me (given I think a tripod is essential to truly attain full resolution and maximum image quality anyhow) and keep clever features like Leica Perspective Control. And a Monochrom version. 

Edited February 6 by Jon Warwick

[T25UFO]

I have just one wish . . . the M12 should work straight out of the box.

[jonoslack]

18 hours ago, SrMi said:

Olympus Om-1 has 1/120 (stacked sensor) and it works fine for moving subjects.

I suppose by Stevejack’s logic that would be equivalent to about 1/2200. Which is fine for  moving subjects 

I agree it’s fine!

[Stevejack]

On 2/6/2025 at 10:19 PM, T25UFO said:

I have just one wish . . . the M12 should work straight out of the box.

I agree but as a buyer this comes down to local laws more than anything - sometimes a camera will be faulty out of the box or fail within a short time. Where I live it's a law that if an item doesn't perform as advertised we are entitled to a replacement or refund. This applies for at least the first 12 months. 
In this way we avoid having to wait for lengthy repairs for a new item... like sending a 4 month old camera off to Leica for warranty work which takes 6 months to finish... 
 

[Alberti]

On 2/6/2025 at 2:01 AM, Stevejack said:

Adding to my last post, I just checked out the math because I was curious - to match a 1/4000sec mechanical shutter the e-shutter's readout speed needs to be around 1/200sec. 

One might remember that the M8 sensor was read out in four blocks. Why not >20 blocks , or more? The sensor has a great depth (wiring..) architecture anyway . . .

edit . . I read a post https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/376083-leica-m11-monochrom-pattern-noise/?do=findComment&comment=4782417

Image splitting, something else than splitting arguments 😉 

Edited February 8 by Alberti

[SrMi]

On 2/5/2025 at 5:01 PM, Stevejack said:

Adding to my last post, I just checked out the math because I was curious - to match a 1/4000sec mechanical shutter the e-shutter's readout speed needs to be around 1/200sec. 

The shutter speed is unrelated to the readout time or curtain speed.  The shutter speed determines the movement  blur, the readout speed determines the rolling shutter.

The mechanical shutter has the "readout speed" of about 1/250 sec. 

 

[Alberti]

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Jono, my I add a quote from you?

Quote

. . . the shutter noise, which is noticeably louder than the M10M, worse than that it's rather complicated sounding compared to the elegant click of the M10M, M10P and M10R. Leica did such a wonderful job damping the shutter in the M10P and it's the only real downside of the M11 and M11M that this has been spoiled.

I keep my fingers crossed (though should have put some clot in the ear) as when I remember how the sequence often led me to think I took a picture while the M just woke up . . 
Though my M10R is rather too silent for me. I stumble - Did I shoot or not? 

Edited February 8 by Alberti

[Stevejack]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

The shutter speed is unrelated to the readout time or curtain speed.  The shutter speed determines the movement  blur, the readout speed determines the rolling shutter.

The mechanical shutter has the "readout speed" of about 1/250 sec. 

 

Yes but what I think we’re both saying is that if you want to take a photograph at 1/4000sec (for purposes of freezing fast moving action, not for exposure reasons) then the equivalent readout speed on a 50mp + sensor needs to be in the vicinity of 1/200sec to avoid seeing the artifacts of rolling shutter.

This is what we see with the Sony A1. Admittedly this is still unmatched among other flagships (Nikon is slightly lower res). 
if Leica want to make it easier on themselves they’ll need to use older tech in a lower res sensor. 24mp stacked sensors have had 1/500sec readout speeds since ~ 2017 or so. 

[Jeff S]

21 hours ago, Alberti said:

Though my M10R is rather too silent for me. I stumble - Did I shoot or not? 

Hearing issues?… or maybe you shoot in construction zones?  😁

This is an example why Leica can never fulfill a wish list that satisfies many.

[Pelu2010]

Hey, 

 

 I also would love to have „split focus image“ option to be able to select. 
 

like a split screen with one side showing the complete image and the other a zoom in part of the image , so I can check focus like a bitch. 
 

I know that all Hawkeyes here don’t need such thing. But we could have it as an option. On off 😆

[VanDooglz]

I spent a lot of time going through pages and pages of this thread. I didn't keep the written notes, but looks like the most popular features requested in the M12 are:

• IBIS
• No freezes
• EVF
• Grip and/or thumb rest

Looks like you guys want the Sony A7RV. Seriously, check it out. The same sensor, plus all the features you're missing. Just glue the Leica dot and you're all set.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, VanDooglz said:

I spent a lot of time going through pages and pages of this thread. I didn't keep the written notes, but looks like the most popular features requested in the M12 are:

• IBIS
• No freezes
• EVF
• Grip and/or thumb rest

Looks like you guys want the Sony A7RV. Seriously, check it out. The same sensor, plus all the features you're missing. Just glue the Leica dot and you're all set.

Nobody (or very, very few) want EVF in M12. Some want a new M line with EVF, while M12 remains a rangefinder. Some do not want a new EVF based M mount camera lune.

Why does the desire to have no freezes means that we want an a7rV?

[Photoworks]

9 hours ago, VanDooglz said:

Looks like you guys want the Sony A7RV. Seriously, check it out.

I am so happy I have sold all my A7rV, A1, and A9

They were collecting dust for months; My M11 gets regular use every day! LOL

[DrM]

Just bug free, all features advertised working at launch date, and a camera for photographers.. not collectors/fashionistas 

[costa43]

I'd like menu selectable framelines. Options for a 40mm and the option to de-activate the pairing set so we get a clean view like the M2. Outside of this, my main want is speed and simplicity. as little between me and the shot as possible, Keeping to the ethos of the M. Instant start up and wake, good battery life, flush screen or no screen. No resolution choices or metering choices, no live view, no phone connectivity. Just a camera with the exposure settings and a great sensor.  

[jdlaing]

6 hours ago, costa43 said:

I'd like menu selectable framelines. Options for a 40mm and the option to de-activate the pairing set so we get a clean view like the M2. Outside of this, my main want is speed and simplicity. as little between me and the shot as possible, Keeping to the ethos of the M. Instant start up and wake, good battery life, flush screen or no screen. No resolution choices or metering choices, no live view, no phone connectivity. Just a camera with the exposure settings and a great sensor.  

I don’t think with mechanical frameline masks that it is possible.

[dscdsc]

I think instead of expecting all these features from an M12 (or any future M camera) we just need another series with M mount. Keep the M series with the simple rangefinder experience and create a parallel line that is native M mount but with advance features that won't be limited by having to keep the rangefinder or form factor.

 

If they just made a Q with M mount it would be a great companion to a M.

[costa43]

29 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

I don’t think with mechanical frameline masks that it is possible.

Maybe they could implement digital ones over the OVF. Not sure if it will work but if it could it would be a nice to have.

[Stevejack]

3 hours ago, dscdsc said:

I think instead of expecting all these features from an M12 (or any future M camera) we just need another series with M mount. Keep the M series with the simple rangefinder experience and create a parallel line that is native M mount but with advance features that won't be limited by having to keep the rangefinder or form factor.

 

If they just made a Q with M mount it would be a great companion to a M.

The Q and SL are both very nice cameras, but I wouldn't want the EVF-M to take cues from their operational design. 

Some of the rumoured concept designs for the EVF-M show the dedicated ISO dial removed... The whole attraction of the M to me is that ISO / shutter / aperture dials are easily tweaked without needing to go into a menu to change anything, nor needing to so much as glance at the camera. 
I'm worried that if they put an EVF in the M body they will also lean hard into the minimalist / futuristic design like the new Sigma BF - which looks like an absolute nightmare to operate and the antithesis of what a manual camera should be. You should NOT have to look at the camera to make an exposure change, there's just nothing intuitive about operating a camera using a menu system.

I'm not a fan of a customisable dial for ISO either, such as on the Q / SL series. It needs to labelled so I can see the setting at a glance and make changes when the camera is asleep / switched off. 

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[costa43]

19 hours ago, Stevejack said:

The Q and SL are both very nice cameras, but I wouldn't want the EVF-M to take cues from their operational design. 

Some of the rumoured concept designs for the EVF-M show the dedicated ISO dial removed... The whole attraction of the M to me is that ISO / shutter / aperture dials are easily tweaked without needing to go into a menu to change anything, nor needing to so much as glance at the camera. 
I'm worried that if they put an EVF in the M body they will also lean hard into the minimalist / futuristic design like the new Sigma BF - which looks like an absolute nightmare to operate and the antithesis of what a manual camera should be. You should NOT have to look at the camera to make an exposure change, there's just nothing intuitive about operating a camera using a menu system.

I'm not a fan of a customisable dial for ISO either, such as on the Q / SL series. It needs to labelled so I can see the setting at a glance and make changes when the camera is asleep / switched off. 

I agree but I reckon they may use the M11-D body design.