WWII Leica Inquiry

[falvomp3]

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Good morning Leica community,

 

Hope this post finds you well, I stumbled on this forum after doing some research into this Leica camera I acquired at auction. 

 

The previous threads regarding this era of Leica is quite detailed, and I appreciated the work that members contribute. I have some doubts about the authenticity of this particular piece and thought I would reach out to get an expert opinion.

 

As you can see, there are no insignias on the body confirming it's not a “horrible” fake, but where I reserve judgement is with the serial # Nr.357261. The serial log books and photos that I have reviewed show a different format than the one that is present on this camera.

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Edited March 25 by falvomp3
Too many duplicate photos

[andybarton]

Welcome to the Forum

According to this database that serial number was not used, so that's a bit of an issue. The script on the back reads "SS disposal troops" in English.

This does not look like any 1930s Leica I have ever seen, but there are many experts here who can advise.

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[sandro]

The Elmar seems suspicious to me as well, since it says 50mm whereas usually 5cm would be engraved instead. The top cover of the camera seems too high in my opinion and the shutter times notch is also new to me.

Lex

[falvomp3]

Thanks Andy, Mike Eckman was able to confirm this unit is a KMZ Зоркий-C (or in English Zorki S) from 1955-1958. 

Mystery solved.

[qqphot]

Zorki-S seems to be a popular base for fakes, being similar in appearance to WW2-era Leica models and thus useful for faking German wartime cameras. The whole thing is a bit distasteful.

[sabears]

Be sure! Super-mega-galactical-russian-fake! 😁

[Anbaric]

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1 hour ago, qqphot said:

Zorki-S seems to be a popular base for fakes, being similar in appearance to WW2-era Leica models and thus useful for faking German wartime cameras. The whole thing is a bit distasteful.

The earlier Zorkis or FEDs were closer copies of the Leica than this one - the fakers must be running out of them. And yes, a particularly tasteless engraving.

[earleygallery]

To any LTM users this is immediately obvioulsy a Russian fake but one dead giveaway (for those who don't know) is the shutter button - no Leica LTM has a centre threaded shutter button (they are threaded around the outside for a cable release attachment).

However, I was browsing in a camera shop window at the weekend and their Zorki's were £130! (I have a couple the same as the ones I saw and paid about £15 each).

[a.noctilux]

Fake indeed.

Many details told that.

The inside coupling (lens to body) would tell the "fake story".

I bet it's not round.

[250swb]

But with luck it could still make pretty good photographs, the base FED's, Zorki's etc are not entirely about faking a Leica, they do work (generally speaking) and have some good lenses.

[earleygallery]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

But with luck it could still make pretty good photographs, the base FED's, Zorki's etc are not entirely about faking a Leica, they do work (generally speaking) and have some good lenses.

Indeed, if working correctly the body itself will produce photos identical to that of a Leica (with the same lens). The 'Russian Elmar' looks in good condition so run a film through it and see. You can always fit a genuine Leica lens if you want to.

[UliWer]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb falvomp3:

this unit is a KMZ Зоркий-C (or in English Zorki S) from 1955-1958. 

This "modern" Zorki model differed quite a lot from the Leica original: especially the top which contains the view- and rangefinder was much larger than the Barnack original. I am not quite sure though I think it had an interesting feature as the long shutter times could be set with a lever below the little wheel for the main times. The Barnack cameras with long shutter times - and most of the copies from elsewhere - needed a separate wheel on the front. 

So the Zorki C (or "S") is not an obvious base for faking a Leica. Your model might even be a rarity for this reason.  

Edited March 25 by UliWer

[jed]

Zorki S - S stands for Synchro. That device is inside the bigger top plate. That camera has no long shutter times.

[UliWer]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb jed:

That camera has no long shutter times.

When I look at the top view in #1 (rather unsharp) I see the numbers 0-?-15-20-25 engraved around the wheel for main shutter times and a lever to be set for these engravings. No  long shutter times? Same here: https://global.museum-digital.org/object/24869 (third of four photos).

P.S. The numbers may be "contact numbers" for flash synchronisation...

Edited March 25 by UliWer

[jed]

Hello, that lever only sets the flash sync delays from 0 (electronic flash) to 25ms. 

Zorki S has only five shutter speeds available plus B.

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

But with luck it could still make pretty good photographs, the base FED's, Zorki's etc are not entirely about faking a Leica, they do work (generally speaking) and have some good lenses.

I've never covered the red dot or logo on a real Leica with gaffer tape as some people do, but if I were going to take this camera out of the house and actually shoot some film with it, I think I'd be applying tape liberally to the top cover, especially at the back...

Edited March 25 by Anbaric

[pippy]

48 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I've never covered the red dot or logo on a real Leica with gaffer tape as some people do...

I have replaced my Leica Red Dots with Black ones which say "Zorki" purely in order to annoy Leica Microsystems...

As always if anyone is interested in the history and products produced by the Soviet photographic industry then I can recommend the Sovietcams website (Zorki cameras come under Z subheading);

http://www.sovietcams.com/cameras

I am utterly fascinated by the FSU 'Barnack' clones. We tend to think that there have been a great many Leitz models made over the years but in terms of model-variation the FSU have Leitz trumped by a landslide and they really only copied one design; the Leica II. I seem to remember counting-up the number of distinct FED 1 versions and it was somewhere in the region of 70 or 80!

Just for fun here is a snap with a few of mine. The one which is in focus () is actually a very early (serial #40797 dates to 1935 / '36) example and, as can be seen, is in wonderful condition. The pamplets? One (right) is an instruction booklet. The other is a similar-period membership booklet for the USSR Communist Party!

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Philip.

Edited March 26 by pippy

[Pyrogallol]

Should there be a separate Fed thread on the forum?

[pippy]

44 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Should there be a separate Fed thread on the forum?

Hmmm.....not sure.

Obviously there is no competition for Leica coming from FED / Zorki but as there is no real connection between the two companies I don't see any benefit for the owners of this site were they to sanction such a sub-forum.

When I started out trying to discover information - before I knew of the existence of the Sovietcams site - I was a frequent visitor to the RFF forum where there is a long-running group of very knowledgeable and equally helpful FSU folks who are active in a sub-forum specifically for those products so it could be argued that for anyone with a particular interest in these cameras then that would be the best place to go.

Philip.

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Hallo,

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[willeica]

This is both a copy and a fake. A copy insofar as the Zorki cameras were based on the basic Leica design and a fake insofar as it claims to be a Leica when it is not. The serial number has no relevance to Leica. It is also based on a Zorki 2-C design variation which began 10 years after the end of WWII, so the SS marking is nonsense. http://www.sovietcams.com/cameras/detail/4z43qp0q4ng2d00bkcna0jmkc4

My Zorki 2-C, wearing a later Industar 50 lens, is here:

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I wrote an article some years ago, explaining the whole fake and copy business and it is attached.

William 

 

Edited March 26 by willeica