Resolving power of lenses on the 60 MP SL3 sensor

[Sohail]

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I've no doubt the SL APO lenses (and 50 SL/1.4) cope very well on the new 60MP SL3 sensor. But can the same be said of the non-APO SL lenses? Interestingly, Lloyd Chambers recently wrote that M lenses "suck at 60MP (or half that) on Leica M11 and Leica SL3... and with only one lens (the 35/2 APO) remotely approaching the reference grade Voigtlander VM APO lenses".

It would be interesting to see more testing on this.

[Chaemono]

Lloyd Chambers also writes “…,the Leica 50/2 APO sucks though.” He is talking about the M lens and it isn’t true. The designed-in tolerances of the APO 50M are so tight, that’s it’s probably very difficult to produce. I used to have two copies of this lens. Οne was exceptionally sharp wide open on the M10 and the other less so. I sold the less sharp one. I also happen to have two copies of the APO 50SL. There is no variation between the two.

The rest of what Lloyd Chambers states also sounds like a bunch of bull. 

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/camera-resolution-explained/

“Cicala cautions that we shouldn’t think of the lens as being a limiting factor in a camera system. Even a bad lens will perform better on a good sensor, so you will gain resolution by upgrading to a higher-megapixel camera even if you don’t upgrade your lenses.”

Edited March 13, 2024 by Chaemono

[jaapv]

Typical Chambers bollocks - he does that regularly when Leica brings out a new model. Not worth discussing.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

[SrMi]

As a reminder, SL3 has 14% more resolution than SL2 (linear dimension).

[davidmknoble]

When the SL2 came out, I was astonished at how some of my R lenses drew on the, then, new high resolution sensor.  The R Summilux 80 was not APO sharp, but significantly sharper than on other smaller sensors.  The same was true of the M11.

I think that there is a limit to older lenses that peak around the 40mp to 50mp sensor.  Yet, some older lenses were limited and the true potential didn’t show until newer sensors came out.

Leica has a history in the S system of designing lenses that still had some to give 10 years later (Leica S 120mm for example).  I highly suspect that Leica designed the SL lenses to do the same - the Summicron and the 3 native zooms - 16-35, 24-90 and 90-280.  The APO 90-280 still surprises me on the SL2 and sometimes I have to pull back just a little on sharpening or only apply the lens profile sharpening.

Even more, I think the SL3 will have incredible color output.  Hoping to have a copy soon!

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Lenses are not resolution limited.

Gordon

[beewee]

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Peter Karbe did a tech talk a while back that went into details of the design targets for M and SL lenses.

TLDR:

• Modern M lenses (pre-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 40 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at 24 MP)
• TL and SL (non-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 60 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at around 60 MP)
• SL APO lenses are hitting 50% contrast @ 200 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at well abover 100 MP)

Skip to the 1:15:08 mark.

 

[Sohail]

59 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Lenses are not resolution limited.

Gordon

???

[AZN]

18 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

I was astonished at how some of my R lenses drew on the, then, new high resolution sensor

I attended the Leica SL3 launch here in Sydney last night.  Was pleased to notice that one of the presenters was using a 20+ year old Leica APO-MACRO-ELMARIT-R 100mm lens to show how the SL3 performed for high-resolution product work.  See image below where he is setting up to photograph a Leica watch.

BTW the enclosed photo is a bit rough because I shot it using an iPhone 🫤

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited March 14, 2024 by AZN

[Doc_P]

Am 14.3.2024 um 05:18 schrieb beewee:

Peter Karbe did a tech talk a while back that went into details of the design targets for M and SL lenses.

TLDR:

• Modern M lenses (pre-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 40 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at 24 MP)
• TL and SL (non-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 60 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at around 60 MP)
• SL APO lenses are hitting 50% contrast @ 200 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at well abover 100 MP)

Skip to the 1:15:08 mark.

 

Thanks a lot for sharing this video. And your concise summary!

[01af]

There's a common misconception about lenses being "out-resolved" by sensors. But lenses don't have megapixels. There is no limit for a sensor's resolution a lens can "deal" with. Sure—modern lenses are better than older ones ... but that's true on any sensor (on film, too). And any lens only gets better the more pixels the sensor has.

This pointless question arises each and every time when a new sensor hits the market with a pixel count previously unheard of. The first time I heard it was over 20 years ago when the Canon EOS-1Ds came out. People wondered if regular SLR lenses can even produce a useful image on 11 MP—oh my gosh! But then the doubts always fade away for good as soon as the new pixel count becomes mainstream and people realize their old lenses are working just as well as they always did ... better, actually. Until the next higher-resolving sensor comes along; then the scaremongering will start over. And yet, today those very same lenses are used on 24 MP, 40 MP, and 60 MP sensors with no issues. And they also will in the future.

[SrMi]

On 3/13/2024 at 7:09 PM, Sohail said:

I've no doubt the SL APO lenses (and 50 SL/1.4) cope very well on the new 60MP SL3 sensor. But can the same be said of the non-APO SL lenses? Interestingly, Lloyd Chambers recently wrote that M lenses "suck at 60MP (or half that) on Leica M11 and Leica SL3... and with only one lens (the 35/2 APO) remotely approaching the reference grade Voigtlander VM APO lenses".

It would be interesting to see more testing on this.

Lloyd Chambers also wrote about Q3 that "the lens is now nothing short of pathetic given the demands of the sensor."

I agree with @jaapv: Not worth discussing.

[Jon Warwick]

On 3/14/2024 at 4:18 AM, beewee said:

Peter Karbe did a tech talk a while back that went into details of the design targets for M and SL lenses.

TLDR:

• Modern M lenses (pre-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 40 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at 24 MP)
• TL and SL (non-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 60 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at around 60 MP)
• SL APO lenses are hitting 50% contrast @ 200 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at well abover 100 MP)

 

it would be interesting what the modern M "APO" lenses are also designed to achieve.  I think the latest and greatest M lenses such as the M 35 APO, or 75 Noctilux, 90mm Summilux etc have extended what was historically typical for M lenses by quite some margin. For example, I've tried my M11 with an M35 APO, and also SL3 + SL 35 APO, and can barely tell any difference in resolving power at all. I resampled images to 50" wide and looked at 100%. Admittedly handheld (albeit that would give an advantage to the IBIS assisted SL3), and taken on separate days, but identical scene in similar lighting. I think for the M11 and SL3, resolving power is the very very least of their respective differences in the context of some of the newer M APO lenses (and Voigtlander APO Lanthars).

Edited March 15, 2024 by Jon Warwick

[nicci78]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:18 AM, beewee said:

Peter Karbe did a tech talk a while back that went into details of the design targets for M and SL lenses.

TLDR:

• Modern M lenses (pre-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 40 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at 24 MP)
• TL and SL (non-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 60 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at around 60 MP)
• SL APO lenses are hitting 50% contrast @ 200 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at well abover 100 MP)

Skip to the 1:15:08 mark.

 

Peter Karbe also talked about the concept of Garbage in Garbage out. 
The lens is the limiting factor because it is first in line. 
Nobody is wrong per se. It is a question of point of view.
- the sensor resolution will be limited by the lens. TRUE
- the lens will resolve more details with more MP behind it. Also TRUE 

By the way it was already true at the time of film photography. Very fine positive films may require best in class lenses. 
Any lenses will benefit from finer grain positive films  

 

Edited March 15, 2024 by nicci78

[nicci78]

First Leitz cameras were designed with this principles : better lenses will extract more resolution from the small 35mm format. Combined with rapid progress into film chemicals. Making bigger enlargements was finally possible without going to Medium Format.

Same for the R line up : offering best in class lenses to rival MF in the SLR time. 

So development of better lenses and more resolving film/sensor are going hand in hand for bigger and bigger prints. 

Edited March 15, 2024 by nicci78

[FlashGordonPhotography]

15 hours ago, AZN said:

I attended the Leica SL3 launch here in Sydney last night.  Was pleased to notice that one of the presenters was using a 20+ year old Leica APO-MACRO-ELMARIT-R 100mm lens to show how the SL3 performed for high-resolution product work.  See image below where he is setting up to photograph a Leica watch.

BTW the enclosed photo is a bit rough because I shot it using an iPhone 🫤

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I'm in Vietnam with my SL3 and missed the launch. Was it good? 

Gordon

[01af]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb nicci78:

The lens is the limiting factor because it is first in line.

FALSE.

 

vor 12 Minuten schrieb nicci78:

The sensor resolution will be limited by the lens.

FALSE.

 

vor 13 Minuten schrieb nicci78:

The lens will resolve more details with more megapixels behind it.

FALSE.

The problem here is the focus on lens resolution and sensor resolution while ignoring the elephant in the room: the system resolution, i. e. the effective resolution in the resulting image, as created by lens and sensor collectively. And the system resolution will always be limited by both the lens and the sensor—and not, as is often falsely believed, just by the "weaker" of the two. So the system resolution is always less than the lens resolution and also less than the sensor resolution. Increase any of the two parts' resolutions, and the system resolution will increase.

[nicci78]

So ? What ? Isn’t that what I said ? Everything is true at the same time. 
Each other will be limited by the other one. 

Edited March 15, 2024 by nicci78

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Lloyd Chambers also wrote about Q3 that "the lens is now nothing short of pathetic given the demands of the sensor."

I agree with @jaapv: Not worth discussing.

Digiloyd has proven over and over again that his knowledge of photography is a foggy place. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Sohail]

18 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Digiloyd has proven over and over again that his knowledge of photography is a foggy place. 

Evidence of consistent fogginess? Otherwise, we can disregard this as a rant.