TECHNICAL DETAILS OF THE ORIGINAL SUPER-ANGULON 3,4/21MM

[Martin K]

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The Super Angulon f3,4/21mm (11103) for the M-series Leica cameras is well known.  That it was designed and manufactured by Schneider-Kreuznach, that it was manufactured for many years (1963-1980) and that about 6 000 were manufactured are facts mentioned in a few places.  In the book “Schneider-Objektive für Foto, Film und Fernsehen” by Friedrich-W. Vogt (1971) in one of the tables it is mentioned that the focal length is closer to 21,6mm and that the distance from the last lens apex to the film is 8,3mm.  Lens diagrams are available in various publications that show its relationship to the Super-Angulons for large format cameras from which it was obviously derived.  But apart from that I am not able to find any further details in the Internet.  I have read somewhere that the lens elements were all made from different glasses – whether that is true I don’t know.

I have one of these lenses, together with three others (35, 50 and 90mm) remaining from my Leica M4 and M6 days.  I have used them quite successfully on and off on the Nikon Z7 with an adaptor.  The Super-Angulon obviously vignettes quite a lot and the colour shift towards the edge from about 2/3rds out is pronounced.  Nevertheless, I have enjoyed using it, usually going the B&W route to get rid of the colour shift.  Of the other three lenses I possess, a fair amount of technical information is available, but not the Super-Angulon – not that I can find anyway.  In his book “Leica Lens Compendium” Erwin Puts also has little to say about it technically.  I have scrolled through the discussions on this forum re the Super-Angulon, but technical details are also fairly scarce.

I would love to find out more technical detail about it to satisfy my curiosity and would appreciate it if I can get pointed in the right direction.

Martin

[luigi bertolotti]

Some collateral infos on its origin (in italian) ; https://www.nocsensei.com/camera/tecnica/marco-cavina/marcocavina/leitz-super-angulon-m-21mm-14-e-21mm-134/

About glass types : this one is an interesting article, but refers to the SA 21 f4 for Leicaflex... also a Schneider design but a later one, in respect to the SA 21 3,4 for M.  http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Leitz_21_4_Super-Angulon-R/00_pag.htm

 

Edited February 27 by luigi bertolotti

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[sandro]

Perhaps A lens collector's vade mecum by Wilkinson may bring some more information. It should be available online.

Lex

Edited February 27 by sandro

[Martin K]

Dear Luigi, thanks for the links. I have followed Marco Cavina's writings for many years and enjoy them immensely. 

Sandro, Wilkinson's vade mecum does not seem to feature the Leitz Super-Angulon - thanks for the suggestion.

Data and drawings of this lens remain a challenge. It seems to me that Leitz does not say much because it is not one of their own designs, and Schneider is also quiet because they did not market it. Sadly, the books of Günter Osterloh containing nice diagrams of the various M-lenses were published when the Super-Angulon had already been superseded by the 21mm Elmarit. But I will keep looking.

[jc_braconi]

Just for illustrating : 3.4/21 M & 3.4/21 R
 

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[pgk]

Some more info here: 

 

[Martin K]

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Thanks for the link, Paul. I did scroll through it before I started this thread. It has a lot of interesting tidbits, but little on the actual design details. 

JC Braconi - thanks for the images. Below my lens which is little older and has quite a few scratches indicating fairly hard usage. I did not buy it new, but it accompanied me on many mountaineering hikes in the Drakensberg mountains here in South Africa when I was quite a bit younger.

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[pgk]

2 hours ago, Martin K said:

Thanks for the link, Paul. I did scroll through it before I started this thread. It has a lot of interesting tidbits, but little on the actual design details.

I think my post #17 was based on data downloaded from Schneider but no longer available. They didn't publish much about the lens potentially because they considered it built under contract to Leica perhaps and so viewd Leica as being resonsible for any information supplied about this lens? Its characteristics are similar to the larger format SAs so I assume that it shares a similar design (semi-symmetrical) and characteristics (centrally very sharp but softening towards the corners, distinct vignetting, lowish distortion, good close-up performance) as these.

[UliWer]

Am 27.2.2024 um 14:45 schrieb Martin K:

Lens diagrams are available in various publications that show its relationship to the Super-Angulons for large format cameras from which it was obviously derived.

First of all the Super-Angulon derived from the Carl Zeiss Biogon 1:4.5/21mm for the Zeiss Ikon Contax:

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The Biogon was a design by Ludwig Bertele from 1951/52. Here you get some context of the Biogon's origin - which was the Russar-22 and most important Bertele's own design for the Aviogon specially designed for aerial view photography:

http://artaphot.ch/images/Technik/Zeiss/Biogon/FS144_History_ZeissBiogon_150dpi.pdf (unfortunately only in German).

Bertele's son wrote a biography about his father https://vdf.ch/ludwig-j-bertele-english-e-book.html where he describes that Ludwig was shocked when he saw the Super-Angulon. He wanted to sue Schneider for copyright infringement though his lawyers advised him that he wouldn't be successful with his claims as the Super-Angulon differs from the original Biogon design.

Here's the design for the f4 Super-Angulon:

and here for f3.4:

One may compare this to the Biogon design which is in the artaphot essay linked above. 

 

I cannot use the Biogon on a digital camera due to its huge rear element though what I know from film it vignettes less than the 1:3,4 Super-Angulon (which is of course a full stop faster). The Biogon is also much smaller than the Super-Angulon - though this isn't always an advantage: if I forget to take my fingers far away from the lens it's sure that they will be on the photo...  

 

 

[Martin K]

UliWer, thanks very much for the link to the article on wide angle lenses, especially the relationship between Russar, Zeiss, and Schneider is very interesting – I really enjoyed reading it.  Obviously, the main lens designers kept close watch on what their opposition was doing, leapfrogging whenever they could without getting involved in patent fights. I am certain in my mind that many of them probably knew each other fairly well.  Computers were still a force in the future, largely.

But I am a bit confused.  In his post #17 on the previous Super-Angulon thread (i.e. Lets discuss the Super Angulon), pgk lists all the known technical data of the Super Angulon f3,4/21mm, mentioning that it came from Schneider, but that it is now no longer available from them.  I have the same information in the book published by Friedrich W. Vogt mentioned in my earlier post.  What puzzles me is pgk’s reference to Werner Wagner as the designer of the Leica Super-Angulon with patent no. 1279959.  If I search that patent number, I get a patent for some thin film application.  Furthermore, Marco Cavina, in his article mentioned earlier By Luigi Bertolotti, lists Karl Heinrich Macher as the designer of the Super-Angulon f3,4/21mm.  Werner Wagner is mentioned by Cavina as being responsible for the large format f5,6 Super Angulons designed a year or two later. A mystery in the making!?

I don’t know how one would get the relevant patent information from the German Patent Office, as this is so long ago that I doubt whether it would be available electronically.  Somebody will probably have to visit the office and do some intensive document research.  I would love to do so, but doing it from South Africa where I live, not so easy.  I do speak German fluently, so that would not be an issue. 

[UliWer]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Martin K:

Furthermore, Marco Cavina, in his article mentioned earlier By Luigi Bertolotti, lists Karl Heinrich Macher as the designer of the Super-Angulon f3,4/21mm.  Werner Wagner is mentioned by Cavina as being responsible for the large format f5,6 Super Angulons designed a year or two later. A mystery in the making!?

I don‘t see a mystery - just a mistake by one of the persons you quoted. If I‘d guess, I‘d say Marco Cavina is reliable…

You can do a research at „Deutsches Patentamt“ https://www.dpma.de/patente/recherche/index.html

Though I don‘t know if you need the patent number or can do a search with „Super-Angulon“. 

[Martin K]

UliWer, thanks for the link to the German Patent Office. I will try it out next week when I have a bit of spare time. Searching Schneider Kreuznach is another option. At least we know the approximate year of a possible patent application.  That should limit the search quite a bit.

[luigi bertolotti]

2 hours ago, Martin K said:

UliWer, thanks for the link to the German Patent Office. I will try it out next week when I have a bit of spare time....

I have time now  ☺️ and thanks to Uli, quickly found the 1279959 - Werner Wagner / Jos. Schneider . https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?window=1&space=main&content=erweitert&action=treffer&firstdoc=1#errormsg 

No doubt, even reading very bad Deutsch, that it is IT, the SA 21 3,4 : lens' schema is as published in Leitz docs and the 3,4 aperture is quoted in the first page, Submitted in 1963 but as far as I can understand, granted only in 1968. A patent granted to Bertele in 1960 is quoted (10542488) 

Btw, text is available also in editable form, good for google translator 😉

Edited February 29 by luigi bertolotti

[Martin K]

Dear Luigi Bertolotti,

Great - nice - bingo!

If I read the patent application carefully, all the data is for a 100mm focal length wide angle lens - a typical way using 100mm as a sort of general reference. Yes, the diagram looks similar to those used by Leitz in their publications, but if I look at the details there are some differences looking at the diagram UliWer posted earlier.  The lens configuration of the two inner groups is a bit different. Especially the two lens elements closest to the diaphragm are much thinner. From the little I know about lens manufacturing these would have been immensely difficult to manufacture for the much, much smaller 21mm version. They would have been very thin. On the other hand, whether the Leitz publication blurb was an accurate representation is of course debatable.

We know that Schneider Kreuznach offered the Super Angulon for large format cameras as f5,6 lenses in 47, 65, 75, 90mm. The patent application implies f5,6, the reference to f3,4 is just a reference in passing if I read it correctly.

So, we have two possibilities: (1) The patent applies to all the Super-Angulons from 21mm to 90mm, or (2) the Leica version is an earlier version and has an earlier patent maybe with a different designer - if patented at all. In the patent documentation there is mention of an earlier German patent no. 1 054 248. Maybe that will help us further. Next week I will look, if nobody else does it in the meantime.

[Martin K]

Correction, I see that patent no 1 054 248 was issued to Bertele. So maybe the 21mm was never patented which I find difficult to believe.

[luigi bertolotti]

An extensive research on patents about such wideangles would be surely an interesting matter... and a lengthy one 😉 : starting from the Wagner/Schneider 1279959 and looking at the other patents referenced into,  you can have a certain idea of the timeline of this kind of lenses. to say, double symmetrical superwideangles : i do report my provisionary conclusion... but do not pretend at all to emulate my compatriot Cavina 😀 : the story is surely more complex... I found that the referenced patents do, in turn, reference other patents too... anyway a quick part of the story can be :

- 1953 : Bertele (in the name of himself - resident in Switzerland) applies for a patent in Switzerland : symmetrical design - 8 el. - 90° coverage - schema applies to a 100mm f4,5 lens (and f5 and f 5,5 with minor variants)

- 1954 Bertele applies for patent in Deutschland for the same design (the Swiss patent is quoted) : granted in 1960

- 1956 : Baluteau (France - in the name of Societè Optique et Mecanique de Paris - it is I think the entity well known as  S.O.M.) applies for a US patent for a similar design : he claims "over 90°" coverage and draws a 100mm f 5,5 lens. Quotes Bertele and Russinov patents. Granted in 1958

- 1962 : Schneider applies for a French patent : usual schema 4+4, design quotes 100mm f 3,4 lens - 90° coverage; They declare that the same design has been filed for a Deutsch patent in March 1961, at their own name (Jos Schneider)

- And finally we arrive to the Wagner/Schneider patent of 1963 , as Martin said, always for a 100mm focal aperture up to 3,4 with 5,6 as a good compromise to achieve a less costly and heavy construction.

My opinion, coming back to our original topic is that probably no specific patent was applied for the 21mm : all those designs and patents do refer to a std FL of 100mm and none of the focals actually implemented by Schneider (Super Angulons and maybe the previous Angulons) and Zeiss (Biogons) is quoted  (probably SOM Berthiot made similar Wideangles... I don't know) . And, as Cavina wrote Bertele and Russinov were indeed the real fathers of this kind of design.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by luigi bertolotti

[UliWer]

Am 29.2.2024 um 18:39 schrieb luigi bertolotti:

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?window=1&space=main&content=erweitert&action=treffer&firstdoc=1#errormsg 

Unfortunately I cannot follow this link - it doesn't show any content. What can I do?

[luigi bertolotti]

3 hours ago, UliWer said:

Unfortunately I cannot follow this link - it doesn't show any content. What can I do?

"dirty" link... this one is clean

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet

Edited March 1 by luigi bertolotti

[Martin K]

Thank you to all who contributed to this interesting discussion - I really enjoyed it. I tend to agree with Luigi that the Leica f3,4/21mm was probably never patented by itself. No doubt, the fact that Schneider designed and manufactured it for Leitz and nobody else, is part of that state of affairs. So, we will not easily gain more information on it unless a technical drawing or similar or more detailed information emerges from either Schneider Kreuznach or Leica.

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