Leica in 2024 and 2025: What’s next from Wetzlar

[thrid]

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If I had to take a guess for what is next in store for the M line I would venture to say... nothing revolutionary.

If they are going to stick to the classic M concept, there isn't a lot they can do aside from upgrading the sensor / processor and mucking about with the shutter.

We now have a modern M (M11) that is:

- the 'correct' size
- has a spectacular sensor
- modern metering system
- big battery
- weather sealing
- internal storage
- USB-C
- WIFI
- Liveview
- Optional external EVF

Aside from the firmware issues that cause freezing etc the most glaring problem with the M11 is the shutter cycle / metering system.

The M11 open-closed-open-closed-open shutter cycle is a bit of an engineering sleight of hand to give us a modern metering system and is far from ideal.

If they had a sensor with a global shutter that gave satisfactory results and allowed them to completely eliminate the mechanical shutter they would probably jump at that in a heartbeat.

Therefore...

M12

- Global shutter on sensor eliminates mechanical shutter
- Dumb 'capping shutter' to protect the sensor during lens changes etc.
- Fake shutter sound option
- Larger internal memory
- High speed EVF connection to have it operate at speeds equivalent to being built in. (I'm not an engineer, so we may already have this in the hot shoe)

If they are going to stick to the traditional M concept there isn't much more they can add or subtract at this point.

The question of an EVF M is murky.

I can't imagine that the subject has not come up for discussion at the local Stammtisch. So, I would not discount the possibility. 

If it happens it would obviously be sold alongside the RF M and Monochrom. I could see it being sold at a premium over the other cameras, even if it is less complex to build. But I can't see them eliminating the traditional mechanical RF M model. That would be total M5 move...  I would also forget about any hopes for a 'low cost' M. As Leica has stated, your low-cost M is a used one,... preferably purchased from the Leica Store.

I would be utterly shocked if they came up with a fuji style hybrid system.

On the other hand Leica may tell is that your EVF M is an optional Visoflex3 that is super responsive and high-res. And that will be an extra $1000, bitteschön.

That said here is a theory...

What of the EVF M is actually a Leica Q with an M-mount and a cam that measures the focus on the RF lenses?

I always wondered if the Q is just an M in a different body.

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Edited February 22, 2024 by thrid

[Stevejack]

7 hours ago, thrid said:

Aside from the firmware issues that cause freezing etc the most glaring problem with the M11 is the shutter cycle / metering system.

The M11 open-closed-open-closed-open shutter cycle is a bit of an engineering sleight of hand to give us a modern metering system and is far from ideal.

If they had a sensor with a global shutter that gave satisfactory results and allowed them to completely eliminate the mechanical shutter they would probably jump at that in a heartbeat.

Therefore...

M12

- Global shutter on sensor eliminates mechanical shutter
- Dumb 'capping shutter' to protect the sensor during lens changes etc.
- Fake shutter sound option
- Larger internal memory
- High speed EVF connection to have it operate at speeds equivalent to being built in. (I'm not an engineer, so we may already have this in the hot shoe)

 

I do think the M11 is a stop-gap, they certainly didn't get the e-shutter right and have had to make significant compromises to the M in order to include it.  I've said this before but going with a single sensor instead of a stacked sensor is inexcusable on a flagship camera.

I'm sure other factors come into play, but it seems there are two reasons for not using a stacked sensor;

1. They couldn't physically fit it in the body.
2.  A stacked sensor was physically possible, but they chose not to use it over budget concerns.

If 2 is the reality, then there is NO WAY they will implement a global shutter any time soon, because they're already proven they don't care about putting the best e-shutter tech in their flagship camera, sparing no expense. 

I really think they're at the point where they need to split their M series. A pure rangefinder experience, using standard off the curtain metering, and focusing on the quality of the pixels rather than jamming in the best tech that they can. A camera that is as close to the film experience as possible, while still giving us the convenience of digital files. 

And then an EVF only M for those who still want the M form factor, and want to use the M lenses. Maybe you're right and it will be a re-purposed Q of some sort. I love using vintage M lenses with the Visoflex, it's great to be able to see the flare / aberrations and use them to full effect while I'm making the picture... but the main reason for buying an M is to get away from the 'photographing with a computer' feeling of most other cameras. They need to keep the soul of the M in tact as they move forward and they are stumbling a bit with the M11 I think.  

Maybe they'll get it right with the M12 and strike a nice balance in a single camera, but if they can't then they really do need to split the M into two I think. 

 

 

[Jeff S]

10 hours ago, thrid said:

I would be utterly shocked if they came up with a fuji style hybrid system.
 

Stefan Daniel already explained why it was a “no-go.”

Jeff

[Smogg]

I'd like to see Leica celebrate its anniversary with a worldwide recall campaign for the M11 so I can get both my M11 cameras back without the constant freezing and file loss. After the release of the latest firmware, shooting turned into Russian roulette. After each frame I have to check whether it was recorded correctly and whether it is displayed when I press the Play button

[Stevejack]

3 hours ago, Smogg said:

I'd like to see Leica celebrate its anniversary with a worldwide recall campaign for the M11 so I can get both my M11 cameras back without the constant freezing and file loss. After the release of the latest firmware, shooting turned into Russian roulette. After each frame I have to check whether it was recorded correctly and whether it is displayed when I press the Play button

I lost a file using the internal drive, after I confirmed I had it on the back of the screen. The corrupt DNG issue is no joke. 

[costa43]

4 hours ago, Smogg said:

I'd like to see Leica celebrate its anniversary with a worldwide recall campaign for the M11 so I can get both my M11 cameras back without the constant freezing and file loss. After the release of the latest firmware, shooting turned into Russian roulette. After each frame I have to check whether it was recorded correctly and whether it is displayed when I press the Play button

I agree that should happen at some point but I think the issue is they do not know what is causing it. For the recall to happen there would need to be a guaranteed fix. 

 

[Smogg]

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M11 has built-in memory. What's stopping developers from making a log file in each camera that would be automatically sent to them when using Leica Fotos? This is perfect feedback, I'm surprised no one from Leica thought of such a simple solution

[fenykepesz]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Smogg:

M11 has built-in memory. What's stopping developers from making a log file in each camera that would be automatically sent to them when using Leica Fotos? This is perfect feedback, I'm surprised no one from Leica thought of such a simple solution

and what about GDPR...?

[fleeja]

11 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I do think the M11 is a stop-gap, they certainly didn't get the e-shutter right and have had to make significant compromises to the M in order to include it.  I've said this before but going with a single sensor instead of a stacked sensor is inexcusable on a flagship camera.

I'm sure other factors come into play, but it seems there are two reasons for not using a stacked sensor;

1. They couldn't physically fit it in the body.
2.  A stacked sensor was physically possible, but they chose not to use it over budget concerns.

If 2 is the reality, then there is NO WAY they will implement a global shutter any time soon, because they're already proven they don't care about putting the best e-shutter tech in their flagship camera, sparing no expense. 

I really think they're at the point where they need to split their M series. A pure rangefinder experience, using standard off the curtain metering, and focusing on the quality of the pixels rather than jamming in the best tech that they can. A camera that is as close to the film experience as possible, while still giving us the convenience of digital files. 

And then an EVF only M for those who still want the M form factor, and want to use the M lenses. Maybe you're right and it will be a re-purposed Q of some sort. I love using vintage M lenses with the Visoflex, it's great to be able to see the flare / aberrations and use them to full effect while I'm making the picture... but the main reason for buying an M is to get away from the 'photographing with a computer' feeling of most other cameras. They need to keep the soul of the M in tact as they move forward and they are stumbling a bit with the M11 I think.  

Maybe they'll get it right with the M12 and strike a nice balance in a single camera, but if they can't then they really do need to split the M into two I think. 

 

 

A stacked sensor shouldn’t have been a space issue as they could have removed the shutter mechanism completely ala Nikon Z9. Also, the shutter mechanism must be a more costly expense to manufacture, install, and warranty than an electronic assembly. Sony may not be selling stacked sensors to competitors though (not sure what Nikon Z9/Z8 are using). A stacked sensor makes a lot of sense on leica M as the 1/4000 mechanical limitation and plethora of fast lenses available which often require the use of ND’s, which are a compromise. It also makes it completely silent which is mart of the M ‘ethos’

As far as botching the current electronic shutter, it’s not really within their control. It’s the reality of an electronic shutter on a non-stacked sensor. Pretty much all of the manufacturers have a similar readout speed when adjusted for sensor size and resolution. There are minor speed advantages to be gained with processing I.e. Sony A7RIV to A7RV is faster while using the same sensor but not by enough to eliminate the issues that come with it.

It’s interesting that the cost of cameras keep increasing while the number of complex mechanical parts/assemblies are removed and replaced with basic electronics. An mirrorless camera with an EVF and no shutter compared to an SLR 5 years ago which had a whole moving mirror assembly, separate light meter module, mechanical shutter mechanisms doing 10+ FPS has to be much easier to manufacture and warranty than what is now basically a sensor+computer in a box. A computer in a box that has less processing power than a $50 raspberry pi. I realize it’s much more complex than that, but the point I’m making is that even if the cost to manufacture them comes down substantially the prices won’t. When the cameras all become fully electronic (no mechanical shutter) there won’t be substantially more hardware costs between the $500 one and the $5000 one other than software features. 

[Smogg]

54 minutes ago, fenykepesz said:

and what about GDPR...?

This could be specified in the settings and the log sent to Leica Fotos at the user's request

[charlesphoto99]

Don't 'global shutters' impact the dynamic range of the sensor? Leica will not (hopefully) want to impact ultimate image quality for whatever it is a global shutter would bring (just more electronic b.s. crammed into the M to go wrong imo).

[R4p70r]

That's also my impression that the people who are tasked to find the root of cause of all the issues don't have a clue what it could be. Otherwise those constant exchange between the owners and Leica, going through so many new cameras in the hope that the new one is not affected but still someday freezes or other problems occurs out of nowhere.

It seems the internal technicians, engineers and programmers don't know where to look? They don't have an overall & detailed overview what is happening in the camera? 
One firmware update after another and the main issue is not being getting rid of and a new one is introduced. It looks like they are fumbling with the firmwares, releasing them in the hope that the bugs are going away but instead they do not and introduce new ones?

As mentioned there should be some kind of crash report or logging to read out what were the last tasks internally in the camera before it freezes or don't record the photos on the SD card and internal SSD storage.

Let's be honest: 2 years or more and there camera still have issues and few new ones. If this is a car which has a flaw that the basic purpose is not fulfilled or a safety issue is apparent that clearly affects its function or some harm will be inflicted, the manufacturer will get a law suit, a big recall would be issued and the product sale would be halted until it is cleared. 

[R4p70r]

13 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I do think the M11 is a stop-gap, they certainly didn't get the e-shutter right and have had to make significant compromises to the M in order to include it.  I've said this before but going with a single sensor instead of a stacked sensor is inexcusable on a flagship camera.

I'm sure other factors come into play, but it seems there are two reasons for not using a stacked sensor;

1. They couldn't physically fit it in the body.
2.  A stacked sensor was physically possible, but they chose not to use it over budget concerns.

If 2 is the reality, then there is NO WAY they will implement a global shutter any time soon, because they're already proven they don't care about putting the best e-shutter tech in their flagship camera, sparing no expense. 

I really think they're at the point where they need to split their M series. A pure rangefinder experience, using standard off the curtain metering, and focusing on the quality of the pixels rather than jamming in the best tech that they can. A camera that is as close to the film experience as possible, while still giving us the convenience of digital files. 

And then an EVF only M for those who still want the M form factor, and want to use the M lenses. Maybe you're right and it will be a re-purposed Q of some sort. I love using vintage M lenses with the Visoflex, it's great to be able to see the flare / aberrations and use them to full effect while I'm making the picture... but the main reason for buying an M is to get away from the 'photographing with a computer' feeling of most other cameras. They need to keep the soul of the M in tact as they move forward and they are stumbling a bit with the M11 I think.  

Maybe they'll get it right with the M12 and strike a nice balance in a single camera, but if they can't then they really do need to split the M into two I think. 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Don't 'global shutters' impact the dynamic range of the sensor? Leica will not (hopefully) want to impact ultimate image quality for whatever it is a global shutter would bring (just more electronic b.s. crammed into the M to go wrong imo).

The idea splitting the M into two branches isn't a bad idea.

A purist oldschool digital M. 

A M camera with all the newest trending tech and EVF only.

 

Yeah, that is what I am thinking regarding gobal shutter: As soon global shutter is introduced there will be an uproar that there is a loss of dynamic range.

[R4p70r]

A SL3 is on horizon and we can all see that its operating system (OS) will be based on the main / trunk OS of M11 and branched out to fit the SL camera (like the Q).

Let's hope that there are not so many issues like that we see with the M11 platform.

We can see in the Q forum there is a power on/off issue with the Q3 that occurs under specific circumstances.

[Tailwagger]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:22 PM, thrid said:

What of the EVF M is actually a Leica Q with an M-mount and a cam that measures the focus on the RF lenses?

For years we've been disabusing folks of this notion as the Q design depends on a leaf shutter in the lens assembly. So to date, no. That said, someday perhaps, assuming we lose mechanical shutters altogether. 

4 hours ago, fleeja said:

A stacked sensor shouldn’t have been a space issue as they could have removed the shutter mechanism completely

The distance from the mount to sensor plane is fixed. Removing the shutter or keeping it has no effect on being able to fit a thicker sensor assembly. The problem is the amount of space from the sensor plane to the rear, not the front.  The obvious solution of a deeper body is something due to the M240 backlash that has been said to be off the table ever since and purportedly why the 11 has no IBIS.  

Edited February 23, 2024 by Tailwagger

[ivohula]

I have said many times on this site that if I am to buy a new M camera, I want the best image quality from it when I am using my M lenses. To me, this largely entails great dynamic range, cutting edge EVF (9M pixels and at least a 120hertz refresh), and IBIS. All in a fairly similar M camera size as we have now. 

In the near future, if I want a "traditional" M, then I can buy a used M11, or M10, or whatever floats my needs, all at a substantial savings. 

When I buy new, I expect great functionality from my $9000+ camera. I expect innovation and reliability. The new Fuji X100VI sensor is an example:

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I love my lenses and stay in the M ecosystem to use those lenses. If I have to sacrifice the functionality of the camera to use those lenses, I will to a point, but there is a limit. Technology marches on and Fuji, Sony Canon and Nikon are giving us great cameras with huge lenses. I like my small lenses for my M but there needs to be more stable tech in the M12 and less excuses.

[Steadimann]

1 hour ago, ivohula said:

I have said many times on this site that if I am to buy a new M camera, I want the best image quality from it when I am using my M lenses. To me, this largely entails great dynamic range, cutting edge EVF (9M pixels and at least a 120hertz refresh), and IBIS. All in a fairly similar M camera size as we have now. 

In the near future, if I want a "traditional" M, then I can buy a used M11, or M10, or whatever floats my needs, all at a substantial savings. 

When I buy new, I expect great functionality from my $9000+ camera. I expect innovation and reliability. The new Fuji X100VI sensor is an example:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I love my lenses and stay in the M ecosystem to use those lenses. If I have to sacrifice the functionality of the camera to use those lenses, I will to a point, but there is a limit. Technology marches on and Fuji, Sony Canon and Nikon are giving us great cameras with huge lenses. I like my small lenses for my M but there needs to be more stable tech in the M12 and less excuses.

i don't think it can be done. Having lens mount changes a lot of things, Fuji developed a lens with the idea that it would be a fixed lens, then you can have the lens closer to sensor. Even if that can be done, I don't agree with crazy EVF, IBIS etc. M11 is a perfect camera as it is (except constant glitches, which i don't experiences honestly with my M11P) for real life.

As i come from cinema world, the only thing i would appreciate is someone develop technology to provide stills camera with 16-17 stops of DR like current cinema cameras AND work on colour science, so the images with applied look would simply be superb - no casts, perfect skintones etc. Imho that is the only way all camera manufacturers need to go, Leica - too. Though Leica has a lot, they could do better.

[fleeja]

3 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Don't 'global shutters' impact the dynamic range of the sensor? Leica will not (hopefully) want to impact ultimate image quality for whatever it is a global shutter would bring (just more electronic b.s. crammed into the M to go wrong imo).

Global shutters currently do but stacked sensors dont. Theres really no need for a global shutter on an M. The advantages are mostly for video and or flash sync which arent really use cases for the M anyways. The 1/250th read out speed of current stacked sensors work perfectly fine for high speed sports without distortion and would also be suitable for an M (or all leica cameras given the price)

Edited February 23, 2024 by fleeja

[fleeja]

2 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

For years we've been disabusing folks of this notion as the Q design depends on a leaf shutter in the lens assembly. So to date, no. That said, someday perhaps, assuming we lose mechanical shutters altogether. 

The distance from the mount to sensor plane is fixed. Removing the shutter or keeping it has no effect on being able to fit a thicker sensor assembly. The problem is the amount of space from the sensor plane to the rear, not the front.  The obvious solution of a deeper body is something due to the M240 backlash that has been said to be off the table ever since and purportedly why the 11 has no IBIS.  

Fair point, but there are an awful lot of very small bodies with a lot of tech inside that keep pushing things forward, look at the example photo in the post above. Just saying its not possible isnt really pushing engineering principles forward, which is kind of what Leica is always saying they do. A7CR series has full frame, EVF, IBIS in a body that makes an M look big, Hasselblad X2D has a medium format sensor, IBIS, and EVF in a body thats about the same thickness as an M. I know both have new mirrorless lens mounts with less registration depth but still.... 

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[fleeja]

43 minutes ago, Steadimann said:

i don't think it can be done. Having lens mount changes a lot of things, Fuji developed a lens with the idea that it would be a fixed lens, then you can have the lens closer to sensor. Even if that can be done, I don't agree with crazy EVF, IBIS etc. M11 is a perfect camera as it is (except constant glitches, which i don't experiences honestly with my M11P) for real life.

As i come from cinema world, the only thing i would appreciate is someone develop technology to provide stills camera with 16-17 stops of DR like current cinema cameras AND work on colour science, so the images with applied look would simply be superb - no casts, perfect skintones etc. Imho that is the only way all camera manufacturers need to go, Leica - too. Though Leica has a lot, they could do better.

I dont think they need to go crazy on the tech either but a stacked sensor provides a completely silent shutter than will never wear out, allows you to shoot wide open on a bright sunny day without workarounds, have no warping effects on moving subjects, and no issues under artificial lights, not sure why anyone wouldnt want those features.  

IBIS is also nice. With 60mp youre generally having to use 4xFL shutter speeds for very sharp photos at pixel level. You can cut that down quite a bit with IBIS, most companies are doing 5 stops with a lot 7-8 now. Yes, it doesn't matter when people/subjects are moving but a lot of M shooters are travelling with cameras and/or shooting static scenes. It sure is nice when you can easily handhold a 50mm lens at 1/15 pin sharp at pixel level, every single time. It allows you to lower your ISO quite a bit and gain back the dynamic range that you mentioned is important to you, as youre only getting max dynamic range at base ISO. Also not sure why anyone would think this is detracting from the camera, its completely transparent to the user

Those two features - not much to gain after that. People can argue about EVF or no EVF, thats preference 

Edited February 23, 2024 by fleeja