m10-r Utterly confused: used M10 or M10-R?

[aamwgm]

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I recently bought an M10 off MPB and I must say I absolutely love the camera. The rangefinder experience is what I’d been looking for all along and the colours and images coming off the camera have blown me away. I love that the images have a slight magenta tinge and the blues are poppy and saturated. At the same time the images seem to be warm and punchy. This camera is by far the best I’ve owned. 
 

The one thing that surprised me is a “repair card” in the box I received stating the camera had been repaired in 2020. This was not mentioned on MPB. I’ve gotten in touch with them and they’ve said they’ll refund me with a free return since they were also unaware. But I’m willing to overlook this. 

Now the dilemma is that there’s also an M10-R for sale from a local. The usual caveats apply: MPB gives me a warranty of 6 months while an individual seller will not. But it’s a newer camera with a larger sensor. I’ve been hit by FOMO. I don’t want to miss out on a newer camera and at the same time something tells me I should stick with a camera I already like. 
 

I’ve also heard that the images coming from an M10-R aren’t as punchy and need more work in post. Post processing is something I’d like to avoid, for me that defeats the purpose. I like SOOC images from the M10.

Now the question I have here is this: how different is the sensor on the M10-R? Are the colours really that  different? Is the 40MP sensor less forgiving? 
I plan to use either camera with the 28mm Elmarit and the Voigtlander 35/1.4. I’m not too interested in the bump in resolution, but the quieter shutter and touchscreen seem pretty useful. 
Does the M10-R suffer from freezing/crashing issues even after firmware updates?
I’ve not found much research on this topic. 
 

Test images (SOOC). 

Edited January 8, 2024 by aamwgm
More detail

[jaapv]

This sounds like a classic case of GAS. 

[jakontil]

Stick with what you feel comfortable with

i have used both extensively and hard to tell the difference except obviously for cropping purposes which the latter have the advantage

[mujk]

2 hours ago, aamwgm said:

I recently bought an M10 off MPB and I must say I absolutely love the camera. The rangefinder experience is what I’d been looking for all along and the colours and images coming off the camera have blown me away. I love that the images have a slight magenta tinge and the blues are poppy and saturated. At the same time the images seem to be warm and punchy. This camera is by far the best I’ve owned. 
 

The one thing that surprised me is a “repair card” in the box I received stating the camera had been repaired in 2020. This was not mentioned on MPB. I’ve gotten in touch with them and they’ve said they’ll refund me with a free return since they were also unaware. But I’m willing to overlook this. 

Now the dilemma is that there’s also an M10-R for sale from a local. The usual caveats apply: MPB gives me a warranty of 6 months while an individual seller will not. But it’s a newer camera with a larger sensor. I’ve been hit by FOMO. I don’t want to miss out on a newer camera and at the same time something tells me I should stick with a camera I already like. 
 

I’ve also heard that the images coming from an M10-R aren’t as punchy and need more work in post. Post processing is something I’d like to avoid, for me that defeats the purpose. I like SOOC images from the M10.

Now the question I have here is this: how different is the sensor on the M10-R? Are the colours really that  different? Is the 40MP sensor less forgiving? 
I plan to use either camera with the 28mm Elmarit and the Voigtlander 35/1.4. I’m not too interested in the bump in resolution, but the quieter shutter and touchscreen seem pretty useful. 
Does the M10-R suffer from freezing/crashing issues even after firmware updates?
I’ve not found much research on this topic. 
 

Test images (SOOC). 

I don't think that the M10 having been repaired is bad thing, particularly if the repair concerned the ISO dial, which broke in some early production M10s. I think the warranty MBP gives you is a good thing if you e.g. would encounter a sensor problem.

You are probably aware of that many digital M shooters only use DNG (the RAW format used by Leica) and that a lot of images and image quality discussions on this forum concern DNG images and their post processing, including what colour profile people use in this process. The profile used has a big influence on how colours are rendered, so discussions on differences between camera sensors often concern other IQ aspects than colour, e.g. resolution, dynamic range, noise etc.

You can find excellent reviews of both cameras on this forum. I think at least one review of the M10-R noted that it has better highlight recovery than the M10, but I'm not sure if that would even be noticeable in an OOC JPG image. The M10-R has been reported to draw more battery power then the M10.

Edited January 8, 2024 by mujk

[aamwgm]

@jaapvit very much is, and a nasty one at that. FOMO and GAS at the same time. Its not a great combination for my pocket.

@jakontilI've been telling that to myself, but that doesn't help losing sleep over what seems like a great deal on a newer camera.

@mujkthanks; I've been browsing these reviews. Seeing images on the M10-R image thread vs. the M10 image thread, the only thing I dislike about the M10 is that its an older camera. Otherwise, it is plenty good for me.

[jaapv]

Personally I would be very hesitant to buy a more than 24 MP camera; 30 would be the absolute max. Above that the drawbacks of high MP counts become intrusive (micro-motion blur, more crosstalk on the smaller pixels resulting in less precise colour transitions, lens flaws becoming visible, etc.). It is not for nothing that Leica brought out the SL2S, and so did other camera makers. My mantra: only buy a high pixel count camera with small pixels if you (think you) need it. The megapixel race exists to sell cameras, not to make better photographs by the average user.

[LeicaR10]

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Aamwgm,  I sent you a PM rather than derail your OP thread.  r/ Mark

[Photon42]

1 hour ago, aamwgm said:

@jaapvit very much is, and a nasty one at that. FOMO and GAS at the same time. Its not a great combination for my pocket.

@jakontilI've been telling that to myself, but that doesn't help losing sleep over what seems like a great deal on a newer camera.

@mujkthanks; I've been browsing these reviews. Seeing images on the M10-R image thread vs. the M10 image thread, the only thing I dislike about the M10 is that its an older camera. Otherwise, it is plenty good for me.

So you know probably what to do. In my opinion, differences between the M10 and the M10R aren't very pronounced in real world usage. I would not loose sleep over it. If you still like using rangefinders in three years from now, trade the M10 for an M12.

[aamwgm]

1 hour ago, Photon42 said:

So you know probably what to do. In my opinion, differences between the M10 and the M10R aren't very pronounced in real world usage. I would not loose sleep over it. If you still like using rangefinders in three years from now, trade the M10 for an M12.

Yeah… GAS is vicious. 

[darylgo]

The M10-R has all the upgrades from the M10-p, quieter shutter and level gauge are two.  The greater recovery of highlights as mentioned is a nice failsafe for overexposure.  It's a difficult decision, when I have these type decisions I inform  the private party of concerns to see if they can help.   Also, the great thing about Leica and any other major camera manufacturer is that there's always availability.  

[M10R]

14 hours ago, aamwgm said:

我最近在 MPB 上買了一台 M10，我必須說我非常喜歡這台相機。測距儀體驗是我一直在尋找的，相機的色彩和影像讓我驚嘆不已。我喜歡這些圖像帶有輕微的洋紅色調，藍色是罌粟色且飽和。同時，這些圖像看起來溫暖而有力。這款相機是迄今為止我擁有的最好的相機。 
 

讓我驚訝的一件事是我收到的盒子裡有一張“維修卡”，上面寫著相機已於 2020 年維修過。MPB 上沒有提到這一點。我已經與他們取得了聯繫，他們說他們會免費退貨給我退款，因為他們也不知道。但我願意忽略這一點。 

現在的困境是，當地還有一輛 M10-R 出售。通常的注意事項適用：MPB 為我提供 6 個月的保固期，而個人賣家則不會。但它是一款具有更大感光元件的新型相機。我受到了 FOMO 的打擊。我不想錯過一台較新的相機，同時有些事情告訴我我應該堅持使用我已經喜歡的相機。 
 

我還聽說來自 M10-R 的圖像沒有那麼有力，需要在後期進行更多工作。後製是我想避免的事情，對我來說這違背了目的。我喜歡 M10 的 SOOC 圖像。

現在我的問題是：M10-R 上的感測器有何不同？顏色真的有那麼不同嗎？40MP 感測器的寬容度是否較差？ 
我計劃使用 28mm Elmarit 和 Voigtlander 35/1.4 中的任何一台相機。我對解析度的提升不太感興趣，但更安靜的快門和觸控螢幕似乎非常有用。 
即使在韌體更新後，M10-R 是否也會遇到凍結/崩潰問題？
我還沒有找到關於這個主題的太多研究。 
 

測試影像 (SOOC)。 

I bought a brand new M10-R last year and took only very few photos. However it's stable and no problem at all. I shoot SOOC deliberately for testing reason, although I've been using Photoshop over 30 years and Lightroom over 10 years. The SOOC jpegs are good if the photographer knows how to shoot (then tonal range is not a real concern). I never have a M10, however, if comparing from the datasheet, I think M10-R is almost completely better (except "theoretically" lesser pixels camera has better noise performance). Hope this can help.
P.S. I used to be a professional studio photographer over 30 years.

[costa43]

I’ve used both of these cameras and have an m10r as my main M. If you do not like post processing and you are happy with the m10 files then it makes little sense to rock that boat imo but if comparing some of the key specs (bar resolution), I would say that the m10 affords you a slighter better battery life, a more forgiving buffer and it is cheaper. The m10r gives you the ability to set longer exposure times, it has slightly better dynamic range, in my opinion noticeably but not vastly better iso performance at 6400 and 12500 when printing and like you mentioned, it has the touchscreen and hands down the best shutter sound 😀

To my eye, the m10 files have a little more green in the highlights and mids than the m10r but are pretty similar otherwise. I base this on Lightroom’s standard profile. As @mujk mentioned, the editing software you use when importing the dng files has a large bearing on the colours you will get as a starting point. 

I’ve not experienced any freezing issues besides those when I’ve been shooting at minus 18 degrees recently!

I’ve also not encountered any real life problems with the higher 40mp and although technically it probably is “less forgiving’, in practice, the images seem very crisp and correct even at relatively low shutter speeds. (I class this as 1/60th). Please note that I mainly shoot wide so it is easier to achieve a sharp image at slower speeds. If you shoot with narrower focal lengths then I’m sure the difference will be more evident.

What I have noticed when shooting with the m10r and then switching to older bodies is that I very much enjoy the base iso of 100 and the highlight recovery. It allows me to shoot wide open more often in brighter conditions without an ND filter.  

I hope this helps and good luck with your GAS! 

 

Edited January 9, 2024 by costa43

[aamwgm]

3 hours ago, costa43 said:

I’ve used both of these cameras and have an m10r as my main M. If you do not like post processing and you are happy with the m10 files then it makes little sense to rock that boat imo but if comparing some of the key specs (bar resolution), I would say that the m10 affords you a slighter better battery life, a more forgiving buffer and it is cheaper. The m10r gives you the ability to set longer exposure times, it has slightly better dynamic range, in my opinion noticeably but not vastly better iso performance at 6400 and 12500 when printing and like you mentioned, it has the touchscreen and hands down the best shutter sound 😀

To my eye, the m10 files have a little more green in the highlights and mids than the m10r but are pretty similar otherwise. I base this on Lightroom’s standard profile. As @mujk mentioned, the editing software you use when importing the dng files has a large bearing on the colours you will get as a starting point. 

I’ve not experienced any freezing issues besides those when I’ve been shooting at minus 18 degrees recently!

I’ve also not encountered any real life problems with the higher 40mp and although technically it probably is “less forgiving’, in practice, the images seem very crisp and correct even at relatively low shutter speeds. (I class this as 1/60th). Please note that I mainly shoot wide so it is easier to achieve a sharp image at slower speeds. If you shoot with narrower focal lengths then I’m sure the difference will be more evident.

What I have noticed when shooting with the m10r and then switching to older bodies is that I very much enjoy the base iso of 100 and the highlight recovery. It allows me to shoot wide open more often in brighter conditions without an ND filter.  

I hope this helps and good luck with your GAS! 

 

I like avoiding post processing as much as possible. It takes the spontaneity out of photography for me. However, some may argue that post processing today is like developing film in the older times. But then again, I am a software engineer and given I need to stay at my computer all day, I'd like to avoid it for hobbies as much as I can.

I also recently saw a video comparing the colours of an M10-P and M10-R: and given the M10-P has the same sensor as the base M10 and the same "colour science". Namely, this screenshot:

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The left is the M10-P and the differences are really apparent in the skies. I'm surprised this has not been pointed out earlier. And the left image is far more pleasing to my eyes than the one from the M10-R.

Perhaps the M10-R image is more "accurate", but I'm not really going for accuracy here. Both images seem really punchy, though, but IMHO, the M10-P's has much more character.

[costa43]

12 minutes ago, aamwgm said:

I like avoiding post processing as much as possible. It takes the spontaneity out of photography for me. However, some may argue that post processing today is like developing film in the older times. But then again, I am a software engineer and given I need to stay at my computer all day, I'd like to avoid it for hobbies as much as I can.

I also recently saw a video comparing the colours of an M10-P and M10-R: and given the M10-P has the same sensor as the base M10 and the same "colour science". Namely, this screenshot:

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The left is the M10-P and the differences are really apparent in the skies. I'm surprised this has not been pointed out earlier. And the left image is far more pleasing to my eyes than the one from the M10-R.

Perhaps the M10-R image is more "accurate", but I'm not really going for accuracy here. Both images seem really punchy, though, but IMHO, the M10-P's has much more character.

Excellent, so the answer for you is to stick with the m10. This is why photography is so subjective. I would prefer the R file here as my starting point. The difference in the sky to my eyes is a rather strong magenta cast that I do not find so pleasing.

[mujk]

50 minutes ago, aamwgm said:

I like avoiding post processing as much as possible. It takes the spontaneity out of photography for me. However, some may argue that post processing today is like developing film in the older times. But then again, I am a software engineer and given I need to stay at my computer all day, I'd like to avoid it for hobbies as much as I can.

I also recently saw a video comparing the colours of an M10-P and M10-R: and given the M10-P has the same sensor as the base M10 and the same "colour science". Namely, this screenshot:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The left is the M10-P and the differences are really apparent in the skies. I'm surprised this has not been pointed out earlier. And the left image is far more pleasing to my eyes than the one from the M10-R.

Perhaps the M10-R image is more "accurate", but I'm not really going for accuracy here. Both images seem really punchy, though, but IMHO, the M10-P's has much more character.

I fully understand you regarding the need reduce time spent at the computer. However, if you use post processing software primarily as an image sorting tool you will get the added benefit of DNG processing even if you don't do any other image editing. 

As you can se the comparison in the video has been made between images in DNG format, so in addition to different sensor stacks and possible differences in raw processing done in-camera, also the colour profiles used are part of the equation.

I bought my M10 six years ago (20k+ images) and for some reason my motivation to plan for an upgrade is decreasing all the time (running out of GAS?).

Edited January 9, 2024 by mujk

[aamwgm]

7 minutes ago, mujk said:

I fully understand you regarding the need reduce time spent at the computer. However, if you use post processing software primarily as an image sorting tool you will get the added benefit of DNG processing even if you don't do any other image editing. 

As you can se the comparison in the video has been made between images in DNG format, so in addition to different sensor stacks and possible differences in raw processing done in-camera, also the colour profiles used are part of the equation.

I bought my M10 six years ago (20k+ images) and for some reason my motivation to plan for an upgrade is decreasing all the time (running out of GAS?).

Yes, that part I fully understand: I've used LR in the past and what it can do to sort your images is incredible. I sorely miss that on Linux, and it even has me doubting about buying a Mac Mini and use it for photography. But Rawtherapee on Linux works pretty well otherwise. It does all I need: cropping, minor corrections etc. But it has no library management of any sort.

Given my images from the M10 have come SOOC -> Rawtherapee, I'm assuming the colour science differences we see in the video and in my experience, are probably a product of the camera: the sensor differences, or the profiles the cameras embed in their images.

And as @costa43 rightly pointed out, what you like is highly subjective. For me the M10 seems to bias highlights towards the magentas, which adds a nice cinematic look. I feel the M10-R is far more clinical.

I'm surprised, however, that Leica camera generations can vary so much with their colour rendition: I don't think the differences in the video are subtle, the skies are drastically different. I believe Fujifilm has been far more consistent with theirs across the lines.

Edited January 9, 2024 by aamwgm

[charlesphoto99]

One thing to consider if one prints large(r) the M10-R  gives more headroom to crop if need be. 

[aamwgm]

4 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Eventually, just like real men, one needs to get both.
I have had the M10-R first and I must tell it was the best I could wish for this side of M11. The M10 sensor is visibly worse (still great though) but the smaller 24mpix file size makes up for it in the sense of space for daily bundles of many, many travel pictures.

Real men with very deep voices and pockets.

Just now, charlesphoto99 said:

One thing to consider if one prints large(r) the M10-R  gives more headroom to crop if need be. 

That isn't much of a concern to me. I don't think I'll ever need to print that large, if I'm being honest.

[aamwgm]

Just now, Al Brown said:

If the pockets are shallower then one camera, the M10-R, is the right path to choose.

I wish I could test both. I've bonded with the M10 instantly, and I love its results. I just hope I don't get the 10R and regret it.

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[charlesphoto99]

10 minutes ago, aamwgm said:

I wish I could test both. I've bonded with the M10 instantly, and I love its results. I just hope I don't get the 10R and regret it.

I shot about 50-100k images through my M10 and then traded it in for an M10-R (black paint model), which is, imo, the same but better. It's pretty much an M10-P with a different sensor. The sensor is slightly different in the color output, though with a few clicks in Lightroom, one would be hard pressed to tell the images I've shot with my M9, 10, and 10-R at base to mid iso's. Highlight recovery is certainly better with the R.