Upgrade from M10 to M11

[kevin2212]

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Dear community,

I am shooting an M10 for almost 4 years now. I bought it used and it never let me down. Last week I visited my local dealer (where I bought my M10) and he offered me 4000€ for my M10 if I’d upgrade to a used M11. In summary, I’d have to pay 3000€ for this upgrade. I am tempted to be honest. 

I held the M11 in my hands and liked, that’s it’s lighter than my M10 and also think that USB-C is pretty handy. 
However, I never really missed anything on my M10. Besides high ISO on some occasions and battery life. I was wondering if the upgrade is worth it, given the fact, that the M10 will decrease in value and this deal is really good IMO.

What are your experiences upgrading from an M10 to an M11? Does the M11 still freeze after the firmware fixes? I will shoot a wedding in summer and can’t afford unreliable gear. 
 

Thank you in forward,

Kevin

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[jakontil]

Very exciting to be in your position facing a potential upgrade, and yes apart from an upgraded sensor of M10 to the M11, usb c came in quite handy in my use case

bout the weights, i still chose a silver brass material which only differs merely 20g from my M10r, the black m11will be even more noticeable 

many great things about the M11 despite its early quirks and to this date some still experiencing unpleasant surprises, talking about your wedding shoots in coming weeks, IMHO, it’s a risk, personally i have 2 bodies everytime i use M11 for professional works

And im still on past two versions of firmware 1.6.1 which i found most stable in my use case scenario

others will hopefully give you more helpful advice 

[dpitt]

You say the M10 will decrease in value and of course that is true. But even more so for the M11. The newer camera will always lose more value over the same years. If you are in doubt if you would like the M11 more than the M10, that does not sound like a good deal.

There is bound to be a M12 in due time. Maybe that will be a more convincing temptation? Or it might be that by that time the latest firmware for M11 will convince you more. I am in no doubt the price difference to upgrade to an M11 will be less than 3000€ then. Of course there is one condition. That is that your M10 is by then still in working condition.

[jaapv]

Will your photographs be 3000 $ better?  A four year old M 10 is still a fantastic  camera. But if you feel like moving on, do it, realizing it is desire, not need. 

[Knipsknecht]

At first glance this seems to be a tempting offer. But you would still have to pay another 3.000 bucks. Given this and given that you’re still seem to be very satisfied with your M10 this “upgrade” appears to me not a “must”. But in the end - of course - it is your money and your choice😉.

[newtoleica]

I have an M10-P and won't be upgrading. 24MP is a sweet spot on the M. Admittedly the P is a bit of an upgrade on the plain 10, but I went through the differences with the 11

Lighter weight - not interested. Its marginal esp when also carrying 2 or 3 lenses.

More MP - a disadvantage in my view (lack of IS makes this not as useable as you would expect).

More DR and better high ISO - rarely an issue as AI de-noise gives me this on processing the M10 files anyway.

USB charging and solid base plate - I have 4 spare batteries so not fussed. (also means I would need to invest in the new battery)

Metering - lack of off the curtain metering makes for a complicated clackety clack shutter sound - a big disadvantage for me in the M11 (I really like my nice discrete 10-P. I know how to use the centre-weight metering as I've been using that system for decades.

Bigger more robust clip on EVF and less blackout - an advantage but I hardly ever use the EVF anyway, so not a big deal. I think you see the EVF mounted so much on the adverts in that Leica are trying to sell more M11s to non-rangefinder users.......

Higher resolution LCD - So? I very rarely use this anyway and the M10 is adequate for a quick check on focus sometimes.

Depreciation and cost - I think the 10 series will soon start to hold its value (look at the prices of M9/240) whereas the 11 series will hit a steep depreciation when the 12 comes. In any case I can think of many other things that I would get better value out of for the price difference.

Bottom line: switching to an 11 would not make my photography better one little bit. Think it through and ask yourself why the dealer wants to give you a good deal on a used M11 ?????

Edited January 6, 2024 by newtoleica

[jgeenen]

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I switched from the M10 to M11 in March 23 and did not regret the move. My M11 never had issues - no freezes, no mechanical errors, no card errors, no overexposure errors - nothing. Whether this is just luck or a result of my relaxed shooting style (no fast triggering, preview only occasionally etc.), I can't tell. 

I love the improvements of the M11, on my daily photography it is four items that count - the sensor with 60 Megapixels, the improved battery life, the 100% reliable phone connection (for GEO data) and the USB charging. 

The only downside in my eyes is the color rendering out of camera - where I don't like the magenta cast in many photos. But that is easy to correct with a default import profile. 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2024 by jgeenen

[WvE]

I know the feeling when you are in a shop and offered an upgrade. But it's always good to go home first and rethink. I will not buy the M11, my M10 is all I need and the price of a new M has reached a level I'm not prepared to pay anymore (especially given the reported issues with he M11 and the long repair times). I would be extra careful with a used M11, it may have had various freezes which caused the previous owner to sell it...

[JoshuaR]

Your M10 must be in great shape if you're being offered four thousand euro trade-in! 

I've contemplated this move several times, but have always come to exactly the same conclusions as @newtoleica. There are no doubt improvements, but they're not ones I need. (There are lots of areas in my life where I could spend more to get improvements I don't need; I don't spend more on a fancier car, for instance, because I'm happy with the one I have.) And I'm also unnerved by the performance issues. I don't want to trade a camera that gives me daily satisfaction for a marginally better camera that may frustrate me, while spending almost what it would cost to buy a second body of the first camera.

I also found the discussion by @bilbrown in this thread to be very helpful. He articulates a set of professional needs that make an M11 upgrade worth it for him. When I compare his needs to mine, it's pretty clear that I don't need to upgrade. 

Finally, there's the depreciation argument. M11s are getting cheaper faster than M10s. The upgrade will get cheaper and cheaper—and less and less nerve-wracking—with time. So my conclusion is that I will shoot my M10 until it dies, and then buy a used M10-R or M11 (or M12!) at that time.

[Warton]

If you have financial means, keep both. M11 is not a replacement to M10 in my opinion.

if you don’t have financial means, keep M10 and wait for next M11-R or M12.

I have m11 black chrome and m10-r black paint. Even though m11 never lets me down (no freeze, no image loss, and I’m running on 1.6.1), I still love my m10-r slightly more 

 

Edited January 6, 2024 by Warton

[kevin2212]

Thank you guys so much for your input. You made up my mind. The extra features of the M11 aren’t worth 3k at the moment. And as the freezing issue seems still on the table, I’d not pay to be a beta tester. For my weddings, I need a reliable tool. I also asked the dealer about reliability (freezing issues) of the M11 and he said if I need an absolute reliable tool, I’d should get the M10-R. 

One of the biggest reasons was my thought that the M10 will lose value over time and an upgrade would eventually cost heaps more. 

I came to the conclusion to just wait and see and enjoy my M10.

thank you all for your time and thoughts. 

[jaapv]

The M11 will lose value over the same time, probably more than the M10. Personally I expect see the M10 stabilizing at about 3000$ after the M12 gets out  Present-day asking prices for the M240 appear to average around 2500 $, M9 around 2000$ so there should be no major loss.

[Eoin]

I can perhaps give you my perspective after recent additions to my kit.

I've shot solidly with the M10 since 2017 and enjoyed every moment with the camera. I had always thought this is where Leica got it right with the digital M. 24mp was a sweet spot, enough for everything I was shooting at the time. Fast forward, I set myself a personal project and found finally the M10 was struggling to get the results I wanted.

I was faced with the choice of adding a M10-R or a M11 / M11-P. I ultimately decided on a NOS M10-R for slightly more than half if what a M11-P would cost me, why?.

Ongoing reported issues with the M11

The value drop in a M11-P over time

Commonality of the M10-R with my M10

40mp was really more than I needed

So I added the M10-R and was very pleasantly surprised by the further in hand refinement of the M10-R. I was happy then and I still am despite adding a 2nd hand M11-M. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the generational improvements in the M11, I don't really use them though. I bought this for its B&W sensor, but deliberately chose it over other 2nd hand M10-M at the same price. For me, in hand, I notice a lack of density or hollowness when the shutter trips, but that's about it. The M11's menu is different yet familiar, physical size is the same, a bit lighter. Best analogy is M11 taught sports car M10-R high powered luxury saloon. I'm fine with the M11-M, great camera, but of the 3 (M10, M10-R, M11-M) subjectively the M10-R is the nicest in hand experience.  

[charlesphoto99]

Spend $200 on an extra battery for the M10. Longer battery life of the M11 problem solved (it takes approx 3-5 seconds to swap a battery). 

[MyLeicaWorld]

Never sell your M10 for M11 .. I did it approximately one and a half year ago.. I sold it for 3000 euros on the trade with m11 .. but I really miss my M10 on every single day .. don’t ask me why cause I have many reasons to tell ..

[Lax Jought]

14 hours ago, kevin2212 said:

Thank you guys so much for your input. You made up my mind. The extra features of the M11 aren’t worth 3k at the moment. And as the freezing issue seems still on the table, I’d not pay to be a beta tester. For my weddings, I need a reliable tool. I also asked the dealer about reliability (freezing issues) of the M11 and he said if I need an absolute reliable tool, I’d should get the M10-R. 

One of the biggest reasons was my thought that the M10 will lose value over time and an upgrade would eventually cost heaps more. 

I came to the conclusion to just wait and see and enjoy my M10.

thank you all for your time and thoughts. 

You made the right choice. 

[otto.f]

21 hours ago, kevin2212 said:

I’d have to pay 3000€ for this upgrade

Too much money for a risk. Never change a winning team after 4 years, after 10 is another question. You can wait and see until that moment what the photo tech developments offer. 

Edited January 7, 2024 by otto.f

[phongph]

19 hours ago, jgeenen said:

I switched from the M10 to M11 in March 23 and did not regret the move. My M11 never had issues - no freezes, no mechanical errors, no card errors, no overexposure errors - nothing. Whether this is just luck or a result of my relaxed shooting style (no fast triggering, preview only occasionally etc.), I can't tell. 

I love the improvements of the M11, on my daily photography it is four items that count - the sensor with 60 Megapixels, the improved battery life, the 100% reliable phone connection (for GEO data) and the USB charging. 

The only downside in my eyes is the color rendering out of camera - where I don't like the magenta cast in many photos. But that is easy to correct with a default import profile. 

 

 

 

Dear Jgeenen!
I have used Leica M11. Please advise me how to correct the magenta cast in color rendering by "a default import profile"!

Ps: I have used Lr to export the photo file.

Many thanks in advanced!
Phong!

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Hallo,

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[jaapv]

 

 

 

[Al Brown]

Never change a winning horse mid-race.
Read that again.