Summicron Rigid Bayonet + Screw Mount?

[105012]

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I have a Summicron Rigid (listed as a 1959 manufacture in the Leica Wiki) which has a serial number in the range 1,706,xxx range. It has a bayonet mount, however I have heard that it may originally have been supplied with both bayonet and screw mounts?

The bayonet mount, when the lens head is unscrewed from it, reveals that it has a matching serial number with the lens head (as above). Also, the bayonet mount has the number 8 engraved into the back of the mount.

The lens head has some elegantly scratched in markings (invisible when the lens head is screwed onto the bayonet mount):

• 51,9N
• 812376
• 59
• S

That "S" does make me feel that it was intended also to have a Screw mount! Would it be likely that there would have been a screw mount for this lens when originally manufacturer? Also, any idea what those scratched in numbers might mean (I'm guessing 51,9 is the focal length)?

[jerzy]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 105012:

I'm guessing 51,9 is the focal length

yes, it is focal length and it corresponds with "8" engraved on the mount. I am not aware what the other numbers/letters may be.

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[105012]

Thanks @jerzy, hopefully others can confirm the rest. 

[Pyrogallol]

As yours has matching numbers on the mount and lenshead then it would have been a bayonet version from the start. It was possible at the time to buy a screw mount to use as an alternative with a bayonet version, but then they would not have matching numbers. Screw rigid Summicron lenses are uncommon now and sell for a considerable premium. To check that they are original you would need to check that the numbers on the mount and lenshead match.

[105012]

Thanks @Pyrogallol . So if you had purchased both mounts, as was possible, one of them would be without serial number, I assume. Good to know! Still curious about those other numbers and the ‘S’…

[105012]

If my 1959 copy was originally bayonet mount, then it seems the Leica-wiki is not quite correct. It currently says:

...

1623001	1624000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (M-rigid+DR-chrom-11818)	1958	1000
1704001	1709000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (S-rigid+DR-chrom)	1959	5000
1749501	1752000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (M-DR-chrom)	1960	2500

...

I think it should read:

...

1623001	1624000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (M-rigid+DR-chrom-11818)	1958	1000
1704001	1709000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (M+S-rigid+DR-chrom)	1959	5000
1749501	1752000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (M-DR-chrom)	1960	2500

...

 

[105012]

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There is mention of some of these numbers in this thread:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/173504-dual-range-summicron/

The AA (superscript) makes me think the S on mine refers to something other than screw mount...?

[wizard]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 105012:

So if you had purchased both mounts, as was possible, one of them would be without serial number, I assume.

No, to the best of my knowledge, if you had bought two mounts (LTM and M) and one lens head from Leitz at the time, both mounts would have had the number of the lens head to show that this specific lens head was matched to work with two different mounts (LTM and M). Those original combinations are extremely rare though.

I own a screw mount rigid Summicron 50 and may confirm that the mount indicates the same serial number as the lens head.

[willeica]

As your lens is from 1959, it could not have been originally a screw mount as that model in the Rigid mount started in 1960. However interchange was possible with lenses in your lens's range between the screw mount and M mount. The codes in your mount relate to this, although I think the long number may for the part. Details from the late Dennis Lacey's book are below. The S may also stand for 'Silber' = 'Silver' as by then they were making the lenses with black paint

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Your lens was produced with an M mount but they may have been preparing for the interchangeable mounts at the time your lens was finished. The entry covering your lens's range in Hartmut Thiele's book is below:

As for the codes in the last column, this may or may not apply to all items in the batch. There is a key at the beginning of the book , which is in German, but it is by no means complete nor is it use consistently throughout the book. 2 could be a type or just describing the fact that there are codes. Rg is 'optische Rechnung' which means 'optical invoice', maybe Jerzy could help on this? ' zT' is not described and, maybe, Jerzy could help again here. 'Nah' may be 'Naheinstellung' = 'Close up' which may indicate that there were some DR lenses in the batch.

The important thing, however, is does your lens work in the mount in which it is in? If by any remote chance you come across an LTM mount on its own you could try the lens head in that. In any event you have an example of the one of finest 5cm lenses ever made by Leitz/Leica.

William 

[UliWer]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb willeica:

Rg is 'optische Rechnung' which means 'optical invoice'

It means „optical computation“ or simpler „optical design“. 

[wizard]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb willeica:

As your lens is from 1959, it could not have been originally a screw mount as that model in the Rigid mount started in 1960.

To the best of my recollection, my own screw mount Rigid is in exactly the same serial number range 1,706,xxx as the OP's. I do not know whether my lens was produced in 1959 or 1960, but since its number is in the same range, the OP's lens could also have been originally a screw mount lens. I am not saying it is, just that based on the serial number it could have been.

Edited December 22, 2023 by wizard

[wizard]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb willeica:

Rg is 'optische Rechnung'

Correct, but incorrect translation. It means 'optical computation' or 'optical design', and the '2.' in front of 'Rg' indicates that it is the second optical design of the Summicron 50.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb willeica:

zT' is not described

'zT.' is an abbreviation for "zum Teil", which means 'partly'. And "Nah" is the short form for "Nah-Summicron". That is, some of the lenses of that batch were DR Summicrons.

Cheers,

Andy

Edited December 22, 2023 by wizard

[UliWer]

The "Leitz Gesamtkatalog für den Fotofachhandel" from May 1959 does not mention a version of the 50mm Summicron with screw mount. Neither is it in a price list from Februar 1960. Both have only the M-mount version (SOSIC). The "Gesamtkatalog" from September 1961 lists the following versions: 11818 R with M-Mount, 11518 L with screw-mount, 11018 J with screw-mount and feet-scale and 11918 M with M-mount and close focus ("Naheinstellung").

So we may assume that the screw-mount version was not for sale earlier than Febr. 1960. This does not necessarily mean that it wasn't produced earlier! It is possible that the whole batch of 5000 Summicrons from 1.704.001 to 1.709.000 was already produced in 1959 (as Thiele says), or the production may have occurred in both years (probably), or some out of this batch may have been produced later  etc.. You never know.

I still cannot make up my mind about the engravings mentioned in the original posting by 10512 as the no 812376 does not match the serial number of the lens - though it should do so!  Can you post a photo of all the "scratched" engravings you find on your lens?

[Pyrogallol]

I have a screw mount rigid Summicron, SOSTA, number 15999** from 1958 with the same number on both parts.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, wizard said:

To the best of my recollection, my own screw mount Rigid is in exactly the same serial number range 1,706,xxx as the OP's. I do not know whether my lens was produced in 1959 or 1960, but since its number is in the same range, the OP's lens could also have been originally a screw mount lens. I am not saying it is, just that based on the serial number it could have been.

The lens heads in that range were interchangeable between screw and M mounts. See my post above. Thanks for the translations. German is often a difficult language to get correct translations for non German speakers. A point I often make here and elsewhere is that a lot of the critical historical material about Leicas is in German only and needs accurate translation. This has arisen many times. 

 

44 minutes ago, UliWer said:

So we may assume that the screw-mount version was not for sale earlier than Febr. 1960. This does not necessarily mean that it wasn't produced earlier! It is possible that the whole batch of 5000 Summicrons from 1.704.001 to 1.709.000 was already produced in 1959 (as Thiele says), or the production may have occurred in both years (probably), or some out of this batch may have been produced later  etc.. You never know.

 

1956 also appears under the heading 'Rechg' for that batch. According to Thiele 'Rechng' means 'angenommenes Jahr der optischen Rechnung bzw. Erstfertigung'. So further translation is required. I think you are right about Leitz/Leica using parts already made for manufacturing, so we need to be wary when assessing individual parts and attributing them to particular years. It was clearly the intention to produce a Rigid lens head which would fit either on LTM or M mount cameras and Laney's explanation is as good as I have seen. Therefore, it would not be surprising to find lenses from this batch in either LTM or M mounts.

William 

[willeica]

40 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

I have a screw mount rigid Summicron, SOSTA, number 15999** from 1958 with the same number on both parts.

Laney included this number range in the interchangeable group. My guess would be that this was sold with an M mount and put onto an LTM lens later, which was perfectly valid and was what Leitz/Leica intended. This is the point I have been trying to make here. I think that the OP's lens was always in an M mount, but could as easily have been legitimately transferred to an LTM mount. 

William 

Edited December 22, 2023 by willeica

[wizard]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb willeica:

The lens heads in that range were interchangeable between screw and M mounts.

William, while what you say is correct, it does not tell the whole story. As you say, the lens heads were physically interchangeable between screw and M mounts, but that does not mean that you could simply take a lens head from any screw mount Rigid, insert it in a an M mount or vice versa and go shooting. To focus correctly, those mounts had to be matched to the particular lens head, and that's why Leica, on special request, sold those lens heads with two mounts (screw and M) each bearing the same serial number as the lens head, thus showing that both mounts had been precisely matched by Leica to work with that particular lens head. So what this means is that if the mount (be it screw or M) does not indicate the serial number of the corresponding lens head, the lens head is not matched to the mount and may or may not work correctly with that mount (it is a matter of luck).

Andy

[UliWer]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb willeica:

'Rechng' means 'angenommenes Jahr der optischen Rechnung bzw. Erstfertigung'.

"Assumed year of optical design or first manufacturing."

Of course the optical design of any lens will be older than the lens production. As Thiele writes "angenommenes Jahr" ("assumed year") he makes clear that he has not seen the sources when the optical design actually happened. 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb willeica:

It was clearly the intention to produce a Rigid lens head which would fit either on LTM or M mount cameras ...

The person who originally used my copy of the "Leitz Gesamtkatalog" from 1961 made many handwritten addenda to the catalogue. He wrote "lens head alone 300,- brutto" so it seems you could buy the lens head alone even if it was not listed officially in the catalogue. Though I find no indication that you could buy a mount separately, so I wonder for which reason one should buy the lens head alone. Other than with Visoflex lenses there was no practical way to use the lens head - only the SOMKY. Someone who wanted to use the Summicron both with an M and an LTM body would need only one head but two mounts - which it seems you couldn't buy. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by UliWer

[UliWer]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Pyrogallol:

SOSTA, number 15999**

I know that Laney and others use the telegram word "SOSTA" for the rigid 50mm Summicron with LTM mount. As I wrote in #13 the LTM-mount version is neither listed in the catalogue from May 1959 nor in a price list from February 1960 - so also "SOSTA" is not mentioned.   The catalogue from September 1961 which has the LTM-version doesn't use the five letter words anymore but only the order numbers with an added letter (which was dropped later).

So where does "SOSTA" come from? Is there anybody who has a brochure or a catalogue or even better a box with sticker which mentions "SOSTA"?

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[Pyrogallol]

31 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I know that Laney and others use the telegram word "SOSTA" for the rigid 50mm Summicron with LTM mount. As I wrote in #13 the LTM-mount version is neither listed in the catalogue from May 1959 nor in a price list from February 1960 - so also "SOSTA" is not mentioned.   The catalogue from September 1961 which has the LTM-version doesn't use the five letter words anymore but only the order numbers with an added letter (which was dropped later).

So where does "SOSTA" come from? Is there anybody who has a brochure or a catalogue or even better a box with sticker which mentions "SOSTA"?

This is the March 1960 catalogue and it only shows the collapsible version available in screw fit.

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