Leica S System Dead - Forever?

[Sarnian]

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13 hours ago, cirofrankschiappa said:

 Would like to, try the 24mm / hope soon. 

The 24mm isn't supported by the Leica adapter so you can only use it wide open (which is still really good image quality). If memory serves me correctly, it did autofocus. I sold it and used my converted Samyang 24mm. 

[Dikdik]

Am 30.12.2023 um 19:32 schrieb jaapv:

When the R was formally discontinued ( I was at that meeting)  a replacement was promised by Mr Daniel. It turned out to be the S series. So it was basically an apology design. Since then Leica never really knew where to position it in the market. In fact, the real R replacement is the SL. Having similar requirements as the poster above, I find that it is more than an equal to the R. Mount a Sigma 60-600 and you have a superb quality weather proof versatile expedition camera that can -metaphorically- be used to fight off bears or hammer tent pegs as well. And it takes R lenses. 

Hello jaapv,

You are right. I agree with you. But you didn't meet the point. The problem with Leica and R system was not release of a new camera. Even totally stopping of R system was not a problem. To my understanding the problem was communication with R user community. When Leica officials spoke about digital R successor they didn't lie but they didn't tell the truth, too.

So, R users were faced suddenly with a digital camera belonging to an absolute different system. In case R users would like to use R lenses on new S camera they had no chance. There wasn't any adapter. So, what should they do for the moment? (Years later a small German company produced on request special adapters connecting tele R lenses to S cameras.)

Obviously the company recognized the problem. They offered an adapter to use R lenses to M cameras (not a joke). Imagine, a nearly 6 kilogram telelens to a delicate rangefinder camera. Unique!

Like nothing else and to my personal understanding this step revealed total helplessness and lack of knowledge of management. at that time, Furthermore, I think they didn't foresee the corollary of this behavior and didn't predict any consequences of their public policy. In a big number nature photographers within R community changed the company.

Jaapv, you know better than me, SL system and S system are not a full alternate for R system. The range of lenses is too small and irenedp (No 23 of this topic) is absolutely right in writing „not thinking of a Leica (any Leica) for nature photography.“ But once R system definitely has been a system for nature photographers with a wide range of excellent lenses.

And now in discontinuing S3 and maybe in going to mirrorless bodies I see the same company's procedure: rumors, nice interviews, hard but sometimes cryptic messages from officials. Same way like about 20 yrs ago. And all this concerned an excellent but even an extremely expensive camera system. And exactly that is the reason why I picked up the pen.

There will be another way and hopefully Leica will go this direction. Canon is replacing just now the EOS system by new mirrorless R system. They offer new R lenses, but adapters for the old EF mount as well and have launched with model R3 a camera with an 1/64000 sec electronic shutter speed. So you can use your old lenses for a time at new camera bodies. What means that? In the near future we'll see flying swallows catching flies and whirring hummingbirds with sharp wings. That's advantage in nature photography.

 

Happy and peaceful New Year

Dikdik

PS: sorry for my clumsy text. English isn't my mother tongue.

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[John McMaster]

22 minutes ago, Dikdik said:

Obviously the company recognized the problem. They offered an adapter to use R lenses to M cameras (not a joke). Imagine, a nearly 6 kilogram telelens to a delicate rangefinder camera. Unique!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

john - when I only had a single S body 😉

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Dikdik said:

Hello jaapv,

You are right. I agree with you. But you didn't meet the point. The problem with Leica and R system was not release of a new camera. Even totally stopping of R system was not a problem. To my understanding the problem was communication with R user community. When Leica officials spoke about digital R successor they didn't lie but they didn't tell the truth, too.

So, R users were faced suddenly with a digital camera belonging to an absolute different system. In case R users would like to use R lenses on new S camera they had no chance. There wasn't any adapter. So, what should they do for the moment? (Years later a small German company produced on request special adapters connecting tele R lenses to S cameras.)

Obviously the company recognized the problem. They offered an adapter to use R lenses to M cameras (not a joke). Imagine, a nearly 6 kilogram telelens to a delicate rangefinder camera. Unique!

Like nothing else and to my personal understanding this step revealed total helplessness and lack of knowledge of management. at that time, Furthermore, I think they didn't foresee the corollary of this behavior and didn't predict any consequences of their public policy. In a big number nature photographers within R community changed the company.

Jaapv, you know better than me, SL system and S system are not a full alternate for R system. The range of lenses is too small and irenedp (No 23 of this topic) is absolutely right in writing „not thinking of a Leica (any Leica) for nature photography.“ But once R system definitely has been a system for nature photographers with a wide range of excellent lenses.

And now in discontinuing S3 and maybe in going to mirrorless bodies I see the same company's procedure: rumors, nice interviews, hard but sometimes cryptic messages from officials. Same way like about 20 yrs ago. And all this concerned an excellent but even an extremely expensive camera system. And exactly that is the reason why I picked up the pen.

There will be another way and hopefully Leica will go this direction. Canon is replacing just now the EOS system by new mirrorless R system. They offer new R lenses, but adapters for the old EF mount as well and have launched with model R3 a camera with an 1/64000 sec electronic shutter speed. So you can use your old lenses for a time at new camera bodies. What means that? In the near future we'll see flying swallows catching flies and whirring hummingbirds with sharp wings. That's advantage in nature photography.

 

Happy and peaceful New Year

Dikdik

PS: sorry for my clumsy text. English isn't my mother tongue.

I happily used my 105-280 R on my M240 Nothing delicate about it - it took my Noflexar-t and TEX (800 mm) without murmur-  and even now all R lenses work perfectly on my SL through the Novoflex adapter (not even the Leica one) There has not been a single problem with these combos. I find it a perfect nature camera, and I am not the only one. I think your assessment is completely wrong.

Come to think of it, my R cameras (I had the whole series from R3 up to and including the R9) regularly had to have the mount realigned after heavy use with long teles, the M3, M4,M6, M8, M9, (Visoflex 😉) never; apparently the body was more robust that the R series.

[jaapv]

As it happens I have my present wildlife and bird combo lying on my desk in front of me. More than happy with it. It has been through Africa twice now. 
 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[tom0511]

When the S2 came to the market it was a very innovative system.

Lenses came slow to market but faster than the SL lineup and its a very fine lens setup and I love those lenses.

I don't understand why Leica did not bring ore innovations into the S3, like a more advanced (and reliable) AF for example.

Everything else would be fine for me.

I hope the compatibility of S4 (if rumors are true) will be good.

 

 

Edited January 1 by tom0511

[Einst_Stein]

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I think SLx answered a lot of “innovation” requests. The projected max resolution probably would out reach S system. I guess just to make S like a SLx with slightly larger sensor do not make much business sense to Leica. 

Fujifilm demonstrated baby medium format can be much less expensive.  I doubt that is Leica’s business model. I guess 
Leica must bring to the table something much more than just larger sensor mirrorless, improved AF, anti-shake, more resolution.  

NOw I own both SL2 and S3, for me the value of S3 is probably mainly the OVF and Contax 645 lenses, until I discover more, 

If digital larger sensor view camera becomes reality…
 

[davidmknoble]

I just wanted to point out that Leica has not stopped servicing the S system.  They have stopped manufacturing the S system.  Until all of the S lenses and bodies have sold, they will continue selling the S system.  I know of people that have gotten their S2 serviced recently in Wetzlar.

I also think as pointed out here, the promises in the R system that did not materialize were a different Leica and when they seriously worried about shutting the doors.

Leica has just quickly announced stopping of M bodies as they work to release new ones. Users of the M system don’t worry about changes in the bodies.  Why?  Because every M mount lens ever made with only 1 or 2 exceptions fits every M body ever made.

The S system has gone through one generation (OVF and SLR).  It is now going to a second generation and Leica has proven that it understands the value of prior lenses fitting new technology.

The S4 to some was a disappointment, to me it has been tremendous.  The same body means the same accessories fit - I can use the shutter release, the USB cable, the grip with extra battery, the RRS tripod bracket, the angled finder and the screens (I like the grid screen for landscape work and quick composure / leveling).  That was value and I appreciate the color output for coastal work.  Some have disliked the sensor, and I am by no means a professional studio photographer.  Oh yes, and it is still weather sealed so I can rinse off the sand and salt after a windy shoot in the ocean spray.

What has been interesting is the change in the SL line.  The SL 601 (which I used in Haiti) accessories did not fit the SL2.  From what I’ve seen the SL3 will have a slightly different sized body.  This means another RRS bracket and another extra battery grip.  While the lenses fit, the other stuff won’t - that is what I dislike the most.  

I still use -3.0 diopters on my M3 that fit my M4, M6 and MP’s.  Every film camera and the digitals up to the M240 took the same diopter correction lens.  At least the M10 (because of the larger viewfinder window in back) is consistent with the M11.

That is the value of Leica beyond the incredible lens. (IMHO).

[davidmknoble]

Oh yes, and Happy New Year to all here!

[Pierre68]

24 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

The S4 to some was a disappointment, to me it has been tremendous.  The same body means the same accessories fit - I can use the shutter release, the USB cable, the grip with extra battery, the RRS tripod bracket, the angled finder and the screens (I like the grid screen for landscape work and quick composure / leveling).  That was value and I appreciate the color output for coastal work.  Some have disliked the sensor, and I am by no means a professional studio photographer.  Oh yes, and it is still weather sealed so I can rinse off the sand and salt after a windy shoot in the ocean spray.

S4?

[BernardC]

20 hours ago, Dikdik said:

There will be another way and hopefully Leica will go this direction. Canon is replacing just now the EOS system by new mirrorless R system. They offer new R lenses, but adapters for the old EF mount as well and have launched with model R3 a camera with an 1/64000 sec electronic shutter speed.

Leica thought of this 70 years ago when they transitioned from screw mount (LTM) to M mount. Decades later, they offered adapters for the S that allowed you to use lenses from other medium format systems. The SL system had an EOS adapter many years before Canon did (it was a Novoflex-branded adapter, granted).

I understand that you feel affected by decisions that Leica made twenty years ago, when they were nearly bankrupt. The R system was one of the reasons why they were in this situation. They tried to save it with the Digital-Modul-R, but it wasn't what the market wanted. Today's Leica is a very different company.

On a related note, the R photographers that I knew bought EOS bodies around this time, as did I (I was a Contax user). It wasn't a perfect solution, but we found-out that our "film" lenses (Zeiss or Leica) were better than Canon's own lenses. I kept working this way for a decade, until the SL was released, which was much better than anything offered by Canon.

 

That was many years ago. The situation now is that several Leica executives (including the Chairman) have told us that the next medium format camera will be mirrorless, and that our current lenses will be compatible via an adapter. Nothing is ever 100% certain, but I see no reason to doubt them. In the interim, I will keep working on my own projects; I'll have a look at this new camera when it is available.

[John McMaster]

12 minutes ago, BernardC said:

On a related note, the R photographers that I knew bought EOS bodies around this time,

Of course the EOS was a break from Canon FD manual focus range, I don't think any FD lens worked on an EOS...

john

[Einst_Stein]

4 minutes ago, John McMaster said:

Of course the EOS was a break from Canon FD manual focus range, I don't think any FD lens worked on an EOS...

john

Mirrorless makes possible many mount to mount converter. If done by the third party, I wish they pay more attention to the reliability, not just functionality, such as matching the power/signaling system to avoid burning the camera or the lens. 

[BernardC]

5 minutes ago, John McMaster said:

I don't think any FD lens worked on an EOS...

They sold an FD-to-EOS teleconverter, but it only made sense for super-telephoto lenses.

[John McMaster]

9 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

Mirrorless makes possible many mount to mount converter. If done by the third party, I wish they pay more attention to the reliability, not just functionality, such as matching the power/signaling system to avoid burning the camera or the lens. 

Of course, but Canon EOS were not mirrorless - it was making the jump to a lens mount that was more future proof (larger lens throat?)

john

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, John McMaster said:

Of course, but Canon EOS were not mirrorless - it was making the jump to a lens mount that was more future proof (larger lens throat?)

john

EOS is probably the most adaptable SLR. You can adapter Leica R, Contax 645 to it. But this is not my point. The point is mirrorless. 

[John McMaster]

Your point was mirrorless, not what I was writing about

johjn

[davidmknoble]

13 hours ago, Pierre68 said:

S4?

LOL sorry, long day!  S3.  That is funny.