Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[charlesphoto99]

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Actually, I loved Cibachrome printing, for satisfaction of the fantastic results. Meopta enlarger, Kaiser dichroitic colourhead, Philips colorimeter, exposure meter and timer, Kodak time clock, large  water tank with thermostat for the chemicals, electric drum roller, (and a huge extractor fan for the chemical vapours) I spent evenings there for just a few prints.  However, printing from colour negatives was a PITA.

I always head easy access to color neg darkrooms, but not so much for Ciba, so always an opposite experience for me (though printing color negs is a PITA - again, because there was no baseline like a slide to compare it to). I pretty much sold a state of the art b&w darkroom and bought half an M8. Of course now that gear is worth much much more, if once can find it (Fujimoto VC enlarger) should have hung onto it, but who knew...

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[la1402]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Somebody obviously never had the 'pleasure' (read sarcastically) of printing Type C (or even more hair pulling Cibabchrome) in the darkroom. Nothing like waiting ten minutes for a print to go through the machine, just to be ripped up in order to add a couple of points of yellow or magenta to the color head. And then do it all over again because those few points changed the exposure, etc etc. Rinse and repeat. Digital photographers, esp those who don't print (which sadly ime is most) have no clue how easy they have it, beyond their laziness to move a slider or two (or click a preset) when needed. 

Completely besides the point. We also don't use large folded maps in our cars anymore to find our way, because GPS are more convenient today. And still some GPS do a much better job than others. 

[jaapv]

16 minutes ago, la1402 said:

We also don't use large folded maps in our cars anymore to find our way,

I do, beside GPS. Much easier to plan longer journeys on. GPS always zooms in and is chaotic on the small screen when zoomed out.

As for being the point - read the thread and understand the context.

[Tailwagger]

It never, ever ceases to amaze me how many folks equate photography solely with the act of pressing the shutter release. What I've grown completely accustom to, however, is their carping about things when they run into the reality this isn't, and never has been, the case.

[la1402]

1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

It never, ever ceases to amaze me how many folks equate photography solely with the act of pressing the shutter release. What I've grown completely accustom to, however, is their carping about things when they run into the reality this isn't, and never has been, the case.

Another one of those red herrings made to diffuse the initial point of this topic. I am amazed how many Leica lovers fear that company to be criticized and go to all lengths of insinuations, accusations and insults of other users to deflect critique. That level of insecurity is saddening. Funnily it’s also counterproductive as it is that behavior which keeps the thread going. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by la1402

[Smogg]

Leica has become an icon for many, so even reasonable criticism of the product is perceived painfully. It has become a habit for me to first take a quick picture with an iPhone in front of the M11, which I will use later as a reference white balance for shooting in current light conditions. 

[Tailwagger]

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3 hours ago, la1402 said:

Another one of those red herrings made to diffuse the initial point of this topic. I am amazed how many Leica lovers fear that company to be criticized and go to all lengths of insinuations, accusations and insults of other users to deflect critique. That level of insecurity is saddening. Funnily it’s also counterproductive as it is that behavior which keeps the thread going. 

First, my post was not directed in any way at you, nor the initial topic of the post.  I picked up on this thread from page 16 on.  If you've been beaten unjustly by others, no clue, but frankly, I find your response, as with so many others of its ilk over the years, to be equally misguided. My comment, FYI, was directed at the juvenile notion found on that page which claimed, or at least implied, that development, processing, classical corrections, etc play no legitimate, let alone necessary, role in the process of creating an image. Feel free to disagree on that point, but note that my comment was around the nature of the photographic process and ZERO to do with Leica. 

As for your initial post.  As I said, I haven't read through the thread, largely because this topic, white balance, has been discussed ad nauseum over the years. If you do a search on the subject of white balance you'll see dozens and dozens of posts about it and the M11... and every other Leica M, SL, Q as well.  You might even come across a post I did right after the M11 release comparing sone test shots with vintage glass to the same on the 10-R which, as a side effect, demonstrated that indeed there was a noticeable difference in AWB behavior between the two. Had you read the Jono Slack review and followed his postings on the M11, you might have even found a simple strategy for dealing with it. 

But more to the point, every damn digital camera and lens I have or have had, has exhibited an AWB tendency to be cool or warm. None are perfect, certainly not even close in less than ideal conditions and that includes 'blads (which come closer than everyone else), Pentaxes, Fujis, Sonys, Ricohs, etc as well as other Leicas. That's why there are gray cards and calibration tools for camera, lens, printers and monitors and why every decent piece of backend software for processing your shot makes a provision for you to correct white balance either manually, automatically or by providing profiles. And its that last bit that you should take to heart, if you haven't already from reading some presumably more measured responses on pages 1-15.  If you find the M11 too cool, using anything other than AWB too taxing and the notion of manually adjusting WB in post too distasteful, then do yourself a favor and buy some form of color calibration tool to profile your lens and camera, load the profile and move on.

[jgeenen]

Now, as it is getting dark and muddy outside, I started analyzing the "purplish tint" phenomenon more in-depth. First I wanted to check the magnitude and influence of Lightroom RAW development. For my tests initial tests I used the M11 grey card WB setting with a grey card to set a neutral starting point as defined by the M11 (since I do not have any controlled light source, I didn't want to rely on the quality/evenness of light coming through the window) and took DNG/JPG combo from a color checker card (I took 5 samples from -2 to +2 EV.

The results:

• According to Lightroom, the camera has decided for a 5300K and +39 purple white balance. My eyes (or brain) see a very slight purplish tint in the grey tones of both the DNG and the JPG images.
• When using Lightroom's color picker to correct the WB, it changes to 4950K and +22 purple. The resulting images however look a bit "greenish" to me - in the same order of magnitude as it seemed to be purplish before correcting WB.
• Hovering over the grey patches, the LR histogram shows slightly higher red values then green and blue with the red channel about 6-8% higher and the green channel about 1-2% lower than the blue channel before LR WB (which levels after color picker WB).

Using artificial test patterns, it seems that the Leica M11 output files are not exactly color neutral but show a slightly pronounced red channel (and blue and green are not even). This tint is visible in the JPG and DNG, so it is not a result of Lightroom's RAW interpretation but "baked" into the Leica M11 output files. Personally, I find the LR color balanced charts a bit too "greenish" and the Leica M11 color balanced charts too "purplish", so my taste would lie somewhere in the middle.

I did only one test so far and I cannot exclude influences from my monitor calibration. To get closer, I loaded the images into Iridient, where the color picker tool is available to curves as well. Measuring the grey patches, Iridient suggests a slight dip in the mid tones of the red channel. I will now look further into that trying to find out

• Can I define a color curve adjustment that matches my taste of colors that I can bake into a preset?
• If yes, will this potential curve adjustment be independent of the light sources (i.e. color temperature in the scenery)?

Side remark: I used SpyderCheckr to create a color correction profile for the M11. This seems to make some adjustments to the red and blue channel mainly affecting the red and light blue patches. I will test this profile against existing images to compare the results

Disclaimer: Neither my light setup nor my computer setup is fully calibrated. So I urge you to not take this result too seriously. There is a German engineering and scientist saying: "Wer viel misst, misst viel Mist" (If you measure much, you will measure much rubbish)

 

[lct]

Red or magenta herring? 😄 Reminds me of the old times when we had no raw files available in some digital cameras (Digilux 1 in my case) and we used to do "poor man's raw" by setting the camera sliders to low and tweaking OoC tiff or jpeg files in post. Was 20 years ago more or less and Leica auto WB's were yet mediocre compared to Canon's or Nikon's but adjusting WB in PP was hardly a problem then so old photogs like yours truly tend to smile a bit when reading recurrent complaints about color casts, especially coming from good people using only one raw converter while ignoring others and yet drawing general conclusions about camera makers. O tempora, O mores 😉

 

[lct]

Just to ilustrate. Marseille in 2003 with Digilux 1. Ugly... [fill in blank] cast isnt it 🙂

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[jgeenen]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb lct:

O tempora, O mores 😉

Looks like the RA-4 prints I did back then 🙂

[lct]

1 hour ago, jgeenen said:

Looks like the RA-4 prints I did back then 🙂

Must have some magenta cast then 😱

https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/223662-ra4-problems-magenta-cast/

[charlesphoto99]

16 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

It never, ever ceases to amaze me how many folks equate photography solely with the act of pressing the shutter release. What I've grown completely accustom to, however, is their carping about things when they run into the reality this isn't, and never has been, the case.

I just heard somebody on the radio make a commentary that "we've become prisoners of our own convenience" in regards to how technology is eroding the ability to think for ourselves and problem solve even on a mundane level. And more importantly, losing the joy in doing so. Of course technology has done much good for the world, but for the most part it hasn't made us any smarter.  

[la1402]

We have come a long way. It has never been easier to create the look you want as the base material has become so good (with correct exposure). Despite it's charms and quirks, I don't miss film. When you chose Kodackchrome, Ektachrome or Velvia, you knew you would be getting a certain color balance and would be stuck with it, and people would chose their film based on personal taste. Maybe Leica made a similar conscious choice to use a magenta tint to create a unique look with the advantage that your are not stuck with it.

[la1402]

21 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I just heard somebody on the radio make a commentary that "we've become prisoners of our own convenience" in regards to how technology is eroding the ability to think for ourselves and problem solve even on a mundane level. And more importantly, losing the joy in doing so. Of course technology has done much good for the world, but for the most part it hasn't made us any smarter.  

There is certainly that, and AI is already making that worse.

 

And living in Social Media Bubbles has additionaly created regression in learning and enlightnment.

But where do you make the cut between necessary or helpful development and too much convenience over the past 1000 years? There is also the element of continous indvidual development. What made you look smart yesterday may be irrelevant tomorrow.

Edited December 8, 2023 by la1402

[bernstein1234]

I owned the M10-R and M11-P together at some point (although have sold the latter) and I'd like to post some unscientific images for comparison (disclaimer: these images were taken around the same location but at different times of the day but should be still valid to some extent about the magenta tint issue).

Taken with M11-P, DNG format, converted straight to JPEG in Lightroom classic. No editing done.

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Taken with M10-R, DNG format, converted straight to JPEG in Lightroom classic. No editing done.

 

As we can see, M11-P default DNG is indeed magenta while M10-R is slightly greenish yellow (at least using my LR Classic). What will happen if I make edits to these DNGs to try and see if we can bring M11-P and M10-R images closer?

Edited December 10, 2023 by bernstein1234

[hjddd]

5 minutes ago, bernstein1234 said:

我在某个时候同时拥有 M10-R 和 M11-P（尽管已经卖掉了后者），我想发布一些不科学的图像进行比较（免责声明：这些图像是在同一地点但在不同时间拍摄的）日，但在某种程度上对于洋红色色调问题应该仍然有效）。

采用 M11-P、DNG 格式拍摄，在 Lightroom classic 中直接转换为 JPEG。没有完成编辑。

 

使用 M10-R、DNG 格式拍摄，在 Lightroom classic 中直接转换为 JPEG。没有完成编辑。

 

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I own both，too。 My shooting result is exactly the same as your photos shows！ the M11P still shows the color problem even with the newest firmware。

[bernstein1234]

For the M11-P image, I decreased the highlights to -100 and lifted the shadows to +80. Same workflow for M10-R. However, I decreased the magenta in the M11-R from default +15 to -5.

 

M11-P, converted from DNG to jpeg using LR Classic. Highlights -100, shadows +80, magenta from +15 to -5.

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M10-R, converted from DNG to jpeg using LR Classic. Highlights -100, shadows +80, magenta slider untouched.

 

My unscientific conclusion:

• By adjusting the green/magenta slider, I can indeed bring M11-P colors closer to M10-R. That being said, we notice that the reds and yellows are different.
• Another interesting observation is that M11-P shadows are easier to lift, which is unsurprising given the new BSI sensor which may account for more information in the shadows.
• However, there is something about the M10-R color which I liked more. Perhaps I could be biased, but end of the day I had sold my M11-P due to the large 60MP files and (no offence) due to my inability to get used to the the grippy-sandpaper feel of the body. The M10-R with its traditional metering, the weight, and the allure of the M10-R Black Paint just make me want to shoot with it more.

I digressed from the magenta issue, but to each his own. End of the day all of us are Leica shooters. Let's enjoy the process of taking photos!

Edited December 10, 2023 by bernstein1234

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[bernstein1234]

11 minutes ago, hjddd said:

I own both，too。 My shooting result is exactly the same as your photos shows！ the M11P still shows the color problem even with the newest firmware。

You can see my second follow-up post of this, it is possible to use the slider to bring magenta to green. However as I stated, the feel of the image is still different from the M10-R, perhaps I'm biased towards M10-R 😄

[hjddd]

36 minutes ago, bernstein1234 said:

您可以看到我的第二篇后续文章，可以使用滑块将洋红色变为绿色。不过正如我所说，图像的感觉与 M10-R 仍然不同，也许我偏向 M10-R  😄

the original M10R DNG has much better color neutralization。  the whole M11 series need new firmware to modify the DNG color procession 。