Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[Robert Blanko]

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

 

 

I know you're both weary of hearing about the magenta tint, but by the same token, many of us are tired of seeing it in live view or when reviewing our photos on the LCD.

 

Exactly.

100% of us here fix the issue in post.

The problem with the magenta cast for many of us is it's highly irritating to see when out shooting. 

For those that are unbothered by the magenta tint, what if it were not just a bit off from neutral as it is now but rather +30 or more off in LRC? Heck, what if all the photos were showing up on the LCD as negatives instead of positives? What if they had pink polka dots all over the image that obscured the photo? Everyone has a breaking point for what they find unacceptable for the price point of their gear. It's ok to not be bothered, but I don't think it right to lash out at those who are indeed bothered by it.

As an M11-D user I don’t know what you are talking about… 🤔😀

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, hdmesa said:

And some of us don't apply import presets that alter the in-camera white balance out of the gate because we'd rather fix it on a case-by-case basis and "see the patient in their actual condition" so to speak. So I guess it's not just seeing the magenta tint on the LCD but also seeing the digital contact sheet upon import into C1 or LR. From there, it's an easy copy/paste of the first image that I've fixed the white balance on. But it's just so much nicer to see the initial contact sheet and unedited images out of other cameras in post versus the M11.

Edit: 1st world problem basically, but one that I would think $9K USD would afford us not to experience

But ACR has a number of import profiles so the user must choose anyway. A profile is not a preset and you cannot convert the DNG without one. It is the institution to the software how to convert the raw of a specific camera. 

That is why I was asking whether the new Adaptive profile was a fix for those who don’t want to make one to their own taste. Who knows; maybe it is Adobes fix for problems like these. 

Note:according to Adobe this profile will come to LR after it is out of the beta phase. 

[M11 for me]

May I bring up an old point again: Are there really M11 cameras and M11 cameras (with different AWB settings out of factory). Some do not render the same way as others. Is that what we learned or do I make that up? The extent of magenta cast that we see in some photographs here, for example "dog in snow" @mirekti is striking after all (even though no problem to fix in post). With my M11 I never get the magenta cast to that magnitude. After all snow or grainfields are special or difficult for AWB anyway. I mentioned my images in the evening sun that I consider beautiful (to my liking) regarding the AWB just out of camera. 

I am very curious to see if Daniel will get his M11 back with a "fixed" AWB.

[jaapv]

Further complicated by snow often having a magenta tint naturally. And IR contamination (yes, all M cameras have that to a certain extent) in light with high IR content can cause a cast as well. The light in an area where a photographer takes his images and his preferred subjects can well explain the variability in perception without sample variation between cameras coming in. 

 

 

[don daniel]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb M11 for me:

May I bring up an old point again: Are there really M11 cameras and M11 cameras (with different AWB settings out of factory). Some do not render the same way as others. Is that what we learned or do I make that up? The extent of magenta cast that we see in some photographs here, for example "dog in snow" @mirekti is striking after all (even though no problem to fix in post). With my M11 I never get the magenta cast to that magnitude. After all snow or grainfields are special or difficult for AWB anyway. I mentioned my images in the evening sun that I consider beautiful (to my liking) regarding the AWB just out of camera. 

I am very curious to see if Daniel will get his M11 back with a "fixed" AWB.

In the meantime, I don't think there are any differences in the magenta cast among the various M11 cameras. We simply have different sensitivities when it comes to perceiving it. There are certain conditions under which most of us can see it—for example, the dog in the snow scenario. Anyone who doesn't see it there likely has some level of color vision deficiency. Similarly, it becomes quite noticeable in street scenes with many shades of gray.

For me, I can even notice it in landscape photos with blue skies and forests or fields. In such cases, it bothers me less, but I still find the image too cheesy. In twilight or sunset lighting, it’s not distracting at all. Finally, under artificial light (night scenes, artificially lit interiors, even theater lighting), the cast is completely absent. In fact, I find the M11’s white balance in these situations better than any previous M model.

In the image thread here on the forum, nearly all color photos appear magenta-tinted, except for those showing night scenes.

Now to my concern: It would be helpful, especially for those who perceive the issue less sensitively or who genuinely have a color vision deficiency, if the white balance offered a more neutral starting point. This is because when they show their photos to others, they might not be as well-received.

Personally, I know I can get the most out of a DNG file. However, I also like to share pictures quickly, whether with family or in other situations. I always shoot in both DNG and JPG formats. I don’t think it’s too much to ask that the JPG straight out of the camera be a usable image. For me, this is not guaranteed with the current magenta cast.

Leica has made strides with its latest firmware and app developments to ensure that photos are ready to share straight from the camera. However, for the M11 to fully achieve this, I feel two features are still missing: a more reliable white balance (ideally one that can be individually calibrated) and better noise reduction for JPGs.

I’m convinced that there’s still room for improvement in the white balance, especially in terms of individual configurability. I believe this would be appreciated by all users, whether they own an M, a Q, or an SL.

[don daniel]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Further complicated by snow often having a magenta tint naturally. And IR contamination (yes, all M cameras have that to a certain extent) in light with high IR content can cause a cast as well. The light in an area where a photographer takes his images and his preferred subjects can well explain the variability in perception without sample variation between cameras coming in. 

 

 

Oh, come on, this is a relapse again! The picture of the dog in the snow is unbearable to look at without giving you the creeps.

[jaapv]

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Hey! Read and comprehend my post before flying off the handle. This is about the difference in perception of a magenta cast between individual photographers

I’m seeing the cast as well as anybody else. I am just saying that this photograph is not a good demonstration. 
Everybody who has ever photographed snow is aware  that it can have a magenta tint naturally. Our brain knows that it is white so we see it as white, but a camera does not. This is well-established colour science. So the photograph is perceived as being off. 
Now nobody is denying that there is a bias towards magenta in the M11. But the only way to quantify it is to photograph a grey card in controlled light, develop the raw in Adobe Neutral and measure. Not by eyeballing it and certainly not on subjects like snow, which often has to be corrected by zeroing the magenta slider with any camera.
I have not seen this objectivity in this thread yet. 

[jaapv]

Which is maybe the reason that Leica seems not very keen to do anything about the M11 colour except on an individual basis. As soon as they tone down Magenta they will start getting complaints about the Greens. Which, incidentally, is the reason I had to profile my SL2S - the camera embedded and Adobe profiles Greens are too violent for my taste. That it differs from the LCD now is quite irrelevant for me. I have yet to think of a reason for judging colour off a camera screen. 

[don daniel]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

 Now nobody is denying that there is a bias towards magenta in the M11. 

Thank you for that! Then we agree that this is a fact. Where we disagree is on how we, as Leica customers, should handle it. I believe my unit should never have left the factory with this calibration. Neither an M9, an M240, an M10, an M10-R, a Q, nor an SL have been or are delivered to customers in such a state. That’s why I’m having it corrected now.

[lct]

1 hour ago, M11 for me said:

May I bring up an old point again: Are there really M11 cameras and M11 cameras (with different AWB settings out of factory). Some do not render the same way as others. Is that what we learned or do I make that up? [...]

I don't think so. Differences, if any, come  mainly from people doing their own WB or not, also using Adobe raw converters or not. No wonder why this non Adobe user has no color cast issues since my WB settings are always done in post. May i have such issues, the culprit can only be me, not the camera maker or my grand mother 😉

 

[Homo Faber]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

I’m seeing the cast as well as anybody else...
Now nobody is denying that there is a bias towards magenta in the M11. ..

Hear, hear!!!

[Homo Faber]

So glad to see that finally everybody is on the same page now! So the natural next step is to agree on that it would be Leica's job the fix the M11's white balance in favour of a more natural (=neutral) colour rendition. They already proved with SL3 that they can do it.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Homo Faber

[jaapv]

8 minutes ago, don daniel said:

Thank you for that! Then we agree that this is a fact. Where we disagree is on how we, as Leica customers, should handle it. I believe my unit should never have left the factory with this calibration. Neither an M9, an M240, an M10, an M10-R, a Q, nor an SL have been or are delivered to customers in such a state. That’s why I’m having it corrected now.

Umm. The M8 had of course the magenta blacks and yellowish greens, the M 9 a daylight/ tungsten issue fixed in firmware, the M240 near-unusable violent reds/fixed in firmware but continued to struggle with colour, etc. And of course both SL601 and SL2s have problems with greens. I could make similar lists for other brands.  Simply one of the joys of digital photography. In my book it is up to the user to deal with it.  Or return to film and cope with the colour idiosyncrasies of various film types…

[jaapv]

6 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

So glad to see that finally everybody is on the same page now! So the natural next step is to agree on that it would be Leica's job the fix the M11's white balance in favour of a more natural (=neutral) colour rendition. They already proved with SL3 that they can do it.

Not really. The real question is whether Leica sees it as a problem. Or their job to fix it. And get the same type of Internet reaction from the customer group that is happy with the present colour set. 

[Malabito]

I can't see any magenta issue in my M11, most probably it does have it given the 39 pages of people commenting about it. But I am actually happy with my M11 results and have no complaints about it, maybe I've got used to it.

Only the overly saturated red skin tones are an issue to me when using the embedded profile, but this happened with all Leica cameras I used (Q, M10, SL2s, and even the M240 to a lesser extent), and it's gone just by using the Adobe color profile.

You can see images with the setup above in my blog, https://ailukewitsch.wordpress.com/

[don daniel]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Malabito:

I can't see any magenta issue in my M11,...

Yes, this is pretty obvious that you can't see it. Sorry to say. But you could try this: Push the tint slider a little towards green. And your "overly saturated red skin tones" are gone, too!
 

 

vor 15 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Umm. The M8 had of course the magenta blacks and yellowish greens, the M 9 a daylight/ tungsten issue fixed in firmware, the M240 near-unusable violent reds/fixed in firmware but continued to struggle with colour, etc. And of course both SL601 and SL2s have problems with greens. I could make similar lists for other brands.  Simply one of the joys of digital photography. In my book it is up to the user to deal with it.  Or return to film and cope with the colour idiosyncrasies of various film types…

I am not saying that M9, M240, M10... were completely free of color problems! But their WB is okay. With a more reliable white balance, the M11 would be the M camera model with the best colors yet.

 

 

vor 41 Minuten schrieb lct:

I don't think so. Differences, if any, come  mainly from people doing their own WB or not, also using Adobe raw converters or not. No wonder why this non Adobe user has no color cast issues since my WB settings are always done in post. May i have such issues, the culprit can only be me, not the camera maker or my grand mother 😉

 

I repeat myself: This is not an issue with the RAW converter. The JPGs straight out of the camera have the same magenta cast. It’s the camera that produces it.

[jaapv]

Maybe, maybe not. It is most likely the embedded profile. Which is obviously used by the camera to produce the jpegs. That is why I wonder whether Adobe's most recent hastily introduced profile in ACR is meant to help Leica out.

[Robert Blanko]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

OK, I get that - it is probably why some other brands allow the user to adjust the white balance of LCD and EVF - and offer multiple AWB interpretations.

And it probably explains the difference in experience by different users - some chimp habitually, others rarely to never.

Actually even Leica allows adjusting the colors of the screen and the viewfinder, at least for the Q2. I stumbled across this in the manual when searching for information about another topic for my Q2. No idea whether this also applies to the M11 though.

[Homo Faber]

vor einer Stunde schrieb jaapv:

Not really. The real question is whether Leica sees it as a problem. Or their job to fix it. And get the same type of Internet reaction from the customer group that is happy with the present colour set. 

I have not the shadow of a doubt that Leica knows perfectly well that there is a problem with the M11's white balance because it is so obvious. And in a perfect world they sure would fix it. But since we are not living in perfect world and the M11 is already a camera of mishaps and miseries my guess is, they will just wait until the M12. New game, new luck...

Edited December 29, 2024 by Homo Faber

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[elmars]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb M11 for me:

May I bring up an old point again: Are there really M11 cameras and M11 cameras (with different AWB settings out of factory). Some do not render the same way as others.

I had three M11 models over the time (M11, M11P, M11D). All have the same magenta tint of +21 in Lightroom with fixed white balance. +10 to +12 would be good as a starting point.