Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[lct]

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6 hours ago, username said:

There just is a strong magenta cast to a lot of photos taken with M11's. Period.
That's not a subjective perception, it's a consensus by now.

It is not, for me at least. This topic has been beaten to death so i must have posted that snap already but what i see here is a bit of red oversaturation but no magenta cast at all. I don't use Adobe software though (Silkypix below) and my white balance is always set in post. FWIW.

M11, 135/3.4, f/3.4

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[jaapv]

36 minutes ago, username said:

Yeah, that's because I'm interested in the M11.
I want to learn more about it, and understand whether the issues with the camera that have been going on since it's release 2,5 years ago have been resolved by now.
 

I'm finding your post a bit strange, too be honest.

 

Hi!
If you would like to move on, by all means feel free and go ahead - nobody is forcing you to read (or comment in) threads regarding this issue 👍

 

Oh, ok! I must have misunderstood this part - I was under the impression the magenta cast is also present IN THE SOOC JPG FILES ?
..due to the way the sensors are calibrated by Leica at the factory?

That is the in-camera, basically the same process as the raw file in your computer, but limited by the processing power of the camera hardware, which is then exported. The DNG file as such has no colour, only instructions for the software to produce it. In fact, the sensor does only produce monochrome data, so cannot be calibrated for colour, whatever that means, colour information is produced by the interpolation of the Bayer filter data. 

[jaapv]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

It is not, for me at least. This topic has been beaten to death so i must have posted that snap already but what i see here is a bit of red oversaturation but no magenta cast at all. I don't use Adobe software though (Silkypix below) and my white balance is always set in post. FWIW.

M11, 135/3.4, f/3.4

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Indeed. As I said, a postprocessing issue, not a camera one.

[username]

34 minutes ago, lct said:

It is not, for me at least.

Thanks for your feedback!
I've seen your posts in the various threads on the subject - apparently you're not experiencing the magenta issue at all 👍

It's all quite confusing, isn't it.
What I've learned so far (or what I think I've learned at least) reading this and other forums, reddit etc. is that

- the magenta cast is not a universal issue affecting all M11 users, it varies from camera body to camera body
- using AWB is (for the most part) what leads to magenta casts
- processing the raw files with adobe software seems to aggravate the problem
- no firmware update so far remedied the situation for those affected, and tweaking / shifting WB in-camera is not an option
- apparently some people got their M11's sensor re-calibrated by Leica, which solved the issue for them (?)
 

At the end of the day I guess I'm just somebody that, generally speaking, doesn't appreciate magenta casts at all -
be it due to digital sensors, weird film scans, bad editing, whatever - had plenty of that in my life already it feels like..
..so that's probably why this is kind of a hot topic for me 🙂

 

 

 

[jaapv]

It must have been an individual firmware tweak. 

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, lct said:

This topic has been beaten to death

 

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

not a camera one.

You are both belittling the problem. If this topic has been beaten to death, which is, there is a task for Leica, period.

[jaapv]

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Yeah-get Adobe to implement a proper profile. Or be like Panasonic and provide a choice of three AWBs and a host of other WB options. 

[lct]

5 minutes ago, otto.f said:

You are both belittling the problem. If this topic has been beaten to death, which is, there is a task for Leica, period.

Hardly seen that many periods in a thead 😄 Just kidding but Leica will do nothing re colors hopefully. I do like the colors of the M11 as they are since the little red oversaturation i'm seing is generally pleasing in my view and is easy to adjust in post if needed. YMMV.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, otto.f said:

 

You are both belittling the problem. If this topic has been beaten to death, which is, there is a task for Leica, period.

Does your M11 exhibit a Magenta cast? Which RAW processor are you using?

I've had an M11 and now an M11-P and the colours look great to me. As you would expect, with the default RAW settings they are different in Capture One compared to Lightroom, but that's just a matter of taste.

[jaapv]

In fact, we photographers are miles behind the Video members in understanding the artistic use of colours to create a mood or other effects. They use the same sensor output, but have an array of LUTs and whatnots to choose from. 

[M11 for me]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb lct:

It is not, for me at least. This topic has been beaten to death so i must have posted that snap already but what i see here is a bit of red oversaturation but no magenta cast at all. I don't use Adobe software though (Silkypix below) and my white balance is always set in post. FWIW.

M11, 135/3.4, f/3.4

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Wonderful colours . . .

I don't want that Leica changes anything in the M11. I do a lot of landscape and architecture. I use an import-profile for all my cameras anyway. You can check on my website . . .

[Photoworks]

Comparing the different cameras at 60MP, the M11 has a different look, and it is not coming from the lens, as I can test it with the same on the SL3

Much more contrast and color saturation. the correct exposure affects your color balance, if you underexpose to save highlight you may get an impression of color color shift, but I don't see magenta in my files.

[setuporg]

A very easy and reliable way to get magenta cast with M11-P/D is to shoot talks at conferences where they project on a screen.  The screen often turns out magenta.

[CDodkin]

On 10/30/2024 at 11:40 AM, username said:

Thanks for your feedback!
I've seen your posts in the various threads on the subject - apparently you're not experiencing the magenta issue at all 👍

It's all quite confusing, isn't it.
What I've learned so far (or what I think I've learned at least) reading this and other forums, reddit etc. is that

- the magenta cast is not a universal issue affecting all M11 users, it varies from camera body to camera body
- using AWB is (for the most part) what leads to magenta casts
- processing the raw files with adobe software seems to aggravate the problem
- no firmware update so far remedied the situation for those affected, and tweaking / shifting WB in-camera is not an option
- apparently some people got their M11's sensor re-calibrated by Leica, which solved the issue for them (?)
 

At the end of the day I guess I'm just somebody that, generally speaking, doesn't appreciate magenta casts at all -
be it due to digital sensors, weird film scans, bad editing, whatever - had plenty of that in my life already it feels like..
..so that's probably why this is kind of a hot topic for me 🙂

 

 

 

The amount of Magenta color cast varies by your latitude - it's a function of how the color temp of the light changes based on the latitude of the shooter at the time. If you use AWB, that's where you'll most easily see Magenta cast, based on your latitude. You can solve the problem in-camera by setting custom white balance using an Expodisc - this allows the M11 to correctly analyze the color temp of the light at that location/time, and set's the Magenta tint level correctly. You re-set the custom WB using this method when the lighting changes, or if you shoot at a significantly different time or location. The issue is most likely linked to the move to SONY sensor tech in the M11. Other cameras with SONY sensors (Fuji GFX for example) have exactly the same issue. The Expodisc fix is 100% successful, and takes approx 10 secs to achieve perfect WB each time you shoot. https://www.expodisc.com

Edited November 3, 2024 by CDodkin

[Pix.View]

On 30/10/2024 at 18:34, jaapv said:

En effet. Comme je l'ai dit, c'est un problème de post-traitement, pas un problème d'appareil photo.

+1

J'utilise DXO et aucun problème.....

[Velo-city]

Gutted to say that I can confirm my M11 suffers from a fairly strong magenta bias using AWB outside.  So obvious after even one days shooting seeing everything with my own eyes versus the camera output.  I was hoping I was going to get lucky here, but sadly not.

Yes there are workarounds, but no way I’m going to carry anything extra with me to deal with it - I’ll use the post options. 
Should it be necessary on a high end (or even low end) camera in this day and age, I think all rational people know the answer to that.

I will reach out to Leica on this point (and a few others) as it would be such a trivial thing for them to add a customisation in for a magenta offset when using AWB. I don’t actually think it’s completely consistent and is a combination of colour temp and tint, but as we all know the tint parameter is very strong so small offsets make a big difference.  Even if it got you more into the ballpark would be much more acceptable and would include the jpegs too.

[andybarton]

It sounds to me like you should return your camera. It clearly isn't right for you.

[lct]

5 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

as we all know the tint parameter is very strong

Again a false rumor. What you tried to prove previously (still now?) was that v90 card don't work well with the M11. With no evidence whatsoever as usual from your part. Now a "very strong" tint parameter. I will have to put you on my ignore list if the mods consider you're not trolling here.

[andybarton]

26 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

Yes there are workarounds, but no way I’m going to carry anything extra with me to deal with it

All you have to do is carry a sheet of white paper or card with you. It’s not hard. 

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[Velo-city]

24 minutes ago, lct said:

Again a false rumor. What you tried to prove previously (still now?) was that v90 card don't work well with the M11. With no evidence whatsoever as usual from your part. Now a "very strong" tint parameter. I will have to put you on my ignore list if the mods consider you're not trolling here.

I don't understand either of these comments at all, but since the user has chosen not to follow me the reply is somewhat pointless, but I'll post anyway as both are quite accusatory on a personal level.

I was talking about the tint parameter as a concept -  an adjustment in say Lightroom or other grading package.  It's a very strong control - tiny adjustments either way make an image uncomfortably green or magenta.  This is the case for any image shot on any camera, and similarly in cine world too.

So it's a critical thing to set right at source.  

IMO - based on my first hand evidence of my own camera that I paid for and use - it isn't being set right on the M11 when using AWB outside.  It's obviously too magenta - on my camera.  Anyone with average eyesight could see it on this cameras output.  That's wrong.  It's not the sensor or lattitude or any of the defences mentioned.  It's the AWB being a bit off and a bit magenta biased.  Changing from AWB to a different white balance makes a much more natural image.  If AWB were good on this camera, both would be much more similar.  

IMO this is quite a trivial thing to fix, so I'll email Leica personally to ask about it.  Don't see why that gets anyone so upset.  

The V90 card comment is just equally bizarre - if anyone wants to re-read that 'tips' thread they will see that as a tip to me, another user posted an external link to some card tests and suggested I look at it.  In there, the article concluded what I posted.  I merely commented that I was surprised as I hadn't seen that.  I stand by my thoughts on the matter.

I just think there's a strong tendency with some users on this forum to assume anything that isn't gushing about Leica is somehow AI or trolling or 'Leica bashing' or whatever - I just don't understand it.  There's a lot I like about the camera. Same for the Q3.  We have three Leica cameras in the house in total. Just because you use something doesn't mean you have to defend it to death!  Of course I expect a Leica forum to have a bias towards a love of Leica and that's completely fine, but frankly the comments about 'Leica bashing', 'trolling', this being a 'Leica forum' etc all feel a little heavy-handed and tantamount to bullying.  

I've added lct to my ignore list too, so I won't see any response from here.

Edited November 7, 2024 by Velo-city