Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, la1402 said:

I thought you don't have an M11? How do you fix it with one Click?

Like this. If you don't have a neutral grey in your shot, use a neutral white. If even that fails shoot a grey card (*( (every photographer should carry one 😉) in your first shot and use the settings as a default for every next shot. Your image will be neutral and you can tweak the colour creatively afterwards.I have a habit of neutralizing many of my photographs from any camera this way before proceeding to process them  It saves a lot of time and effort 

(*) or the pavement or a passing dove or whatever nicely neutral grey

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[lct]

45 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Your image will be neutral and you can tweak the colour creatively afterwards

... and then your image will look like your current one except that you won't call it magenta cast 😄 Just kidding.

[jaapv]

9 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

 

Yeah Leica could fix this. But so can you.

And that is the point I have been making all the time. No need to delve deeply into technicalities, practical solutions are what we need. 

[don daniel]

I can do the click with the pipette myself very easily if I have a neutral grey area in the picture. I do this pretty often. I do not leave a false white balance uncorrected. If I'm taking a portrait in nature, it becomes more difficult. I then have to use the grey card first or fiddle around with the white balance sliders afterwards. In any case, it takes more effort than if Leica would simply deliver a usable initial result. Once again: I think the M10 and the M10-R can do it. Why I now have to go to more effort with the more modern M11 to get a more colour-matched photo is beyond me. I also find it difficult in situations with changing light conditions. It's simply fantastic how well this works with a Z9. I think it should be Leica's claim to be able to do this so well. Here in the forum I am always amazed at the ways and detours people find to compensate for Leica's inadequacy in firmware development. Overall, however, it is of course a much smaller problem than the freezes. Leica is still busy trying to get the M11 to work reliably at all. At least my copy doesn't make any problems here. 

[la1402]

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

Like this. If you don't have a neutral grey in your shot, use a neutral white. If even that fails shoot a grey card (*( (every photographer should carry one 😉) in your first shot and use the settings as a default for every next shot. Your image will be neutral and you can tweak the colour creatively afterwards.I have a habit of neutralizing many of my photographs from any camera this way before proceeding to process them  It saves a lot of time and effort 

(*) or the pavement or a passing dove or whatever nicely neutral grey

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thanks indeed I use that. My major Issue with the M11 are random, but then very annoying purplish skin tones, and that approach doesn't work there. Pictures without faces being the main subject work that way or just via Tint.

[jaapv]

Skin tones are often a problem with M cameras. I found that one of the major causes is IR contamination. All M cameras have only a moderately effective IR filter for technical reasons. The effectiveness varies with the model.  Normally it is sufficient but in light with a high IR content it can be problematic. On Caucasian skin it results in purple and yellow blotches.  An IR cut filter will help. 

[Adam Bonn]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

And that is the point I have been making all the time. No need to delve deeply into technicalities, practical solutions are what we need. 

Yup learn the tools or learn the profiles or learn both. Folks just need to have the notion that the default import settings, or a basic profile made with a non-configurable app are starting points, and some time with the tools (or a tailor made profile) can achieve more meaningful results.

Or in Leica's own words

Quote

People who see the big picture, who look twice, question triviality and recognise the unusual in everyday things. They think outside the box, look beyond the everyday and expand their own horizons.

Or put another way.. this isn't a camera that does it all for you, it's one for inspiring you to find your path. 

[charlesphoto99]

16 hours ago, lct said:

My streets are in the country since i'm retired sorry. I've shot a lot of magenta there but i've never noticed any significant magenta cast so far. Could it be a street issue so to speak? (M11 + Heliar 15/4.5 v2)

 

Magenta. So was your earlier example. You're just not seeing it. 

[LBJ2]

14 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

Yup learn the tools or learn the profiles or learn both. Folks just need to have the notion that the default import settings, or a basic profile made with a non-configurable app are starting points, and some time with the tools (or a tailor made profile) can achieve more meaningful results.

Or in Leica's own words

Or put another way.. this isn't a camera that does it all for you, it's one for inspiring you to find your path. 

I for one appreciate your technical explanations. I do wish there was much more info available by both the camera makers and the editing app companies about how all of this works! But I guess there is some secret sauce, companies don't want to reveal to their competitors. 

[lct]

36 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Magenta. So was your earlier example. You're just not seeing it. 

Glad Leica tailored an M11 for my sight then 🙂

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Magenta. So was your earlier example. You're just not seeing it. 

For many reasons, some don't see the Nikon Yellow/Green cast either. Personally, I didn't see the M11 magenta cast until it was pointed out to me. A quick direct comparison can help for those that think they don't see it. I quickly learned that any LR color profiles exaggerate the magenta cast in M11 images while other Raw editors do not. 

I am positive Adobe didn't set out to push magenta cast in M11 profiles. So I do wonder what Adobe did do that results in high TINT values in Leica LR profiles where other raw editors using the same M11 camera/file data do not. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by LBJ2

[charlesphoto99]

43 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

For many reasons, some don't see the Nikon Yellow/Green cast either. Personally, I didn't see the M11 magenta cast until it was pointed out to me. A quick direct comparison can help for those that think they don't see it. I quickly learned that any LR color profiles exaggerate the magenta cast in M11 images while other Raw editors do not. 

I am positive Adobe didn't set out to push magenta cast in M11 profiles. So I do wonder what Adobe did do that results in high TINT values in Leica LR profiles where other raw editors using the same M11 camera/file data do not. 

I saw the magenta cast since the first day people started posting pics with the M11 (it was middle of winter, so plenty of shots with snow in them). The Nikon yellow/green cast is something I've also always seen in my Nikon shots (which are rare these days). It's very important that one has a calibrated monitor. 

[Adam Bonn]

3 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I for one appreciate your technical explanations. I do wish there was much more info available by both the camera makers and the editing app companies about how all of this works! But I guess there is some secret sauce, companies don't want to reveal to their competitors. 

Thank you, well adobe are very open about the DNG pipeline (I posted the link to their white paper about it earlier in this thread), also you can read about profile theory at Lumariver (here), you read about how the LUTs work here. Jack Hogan's blog has some info about how we see colour here and about how apps create profiles from a colorchecker card here. Another here and here about the importance of the correct WB.. 

The only info that isn't really out there is the algorithm the camera makers use to compute WB, and we can't blame them really... to have a camera (any camera) produce a correct CCT from a scene and to be able to do it consistently again and again is quite a feat.... and one can only assume that perhaps Leica MIGHT not have quite the same R&D budget that some other brands have in this area... 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Adam Bonn

[Adam Bonn]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

I am positive Adobe didn't set out to push magenta cast in M11 profiles. So I do wonder what Adobe did do that results in high TINT values in Leica LR profiles where other raw editors using the same M11 camera/file data do not. 

The non adobe RAW editors are not based on a DNG image pipeline.

I don't know if you've ever profiled a camera for use in adobe, but the very first thing you have to do with the shot of the colorchecker is convert it to DNG (unless it's already DNG). As far as adobe is concerned the whole world is DNG 😉 

The other editors are more into reverse engineering (or getting OEM support) non-open source RAW formats (nef, raf etc etc) and therefore are free to ignore or implement the DNG tags as they see fit.

So in DNG (super simple over view)

some tag the camera burnt into the RAW as per the DNG spec x *maths* as specified in the DNG spec = a CCT / tint value

But the other apps can work like

some tag the camera burnt into the RAW as per the DNG spec x *maths* as specified in the DNG spec screw that crap, lets use our own method of calculating a CCT / tint value

 

[adan]

9 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

I don't know if you've ever profiled a camera for use in adobe, but the very first thing you have to do with the shot of the colorchecker is convert it to DNG (unless it's already DNG). As far as adobe is concerned the whole world is DNG 😉 

Hmmm. Adobe Camera Raw offers the option to convert/save other formats as .DNGs.

But it also reads them natively, which is why it is constantly being updated for new cameras and their formats.

I've never had to make a .DNG conversion to create profiles for any camera's raw files: Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Panasonic.

Simply slide the calibration-panel RGB-primaries hue/sat sliders around until the ColorChecker primaries in the image match the published RGB values they should have - save the settings (not the file) as a "New Camera Raw Default" (and as an .xmp file for manual application to an image if needed) - and any pictures from that camera model use my new, adjusted, profile to get well-rendered color for every subsequent image opened.

Now, it is certainly true that raw files/format (including .DNG) can include "hints" in the metadata, that recommend a setting in post processing. One obvious hint being the "As Shot" WB metadata. The camera-written metadata includes the information that, for example, "This camera used a WB at 5500K + tint of +35 magenta, for this particular picture, for producing jpegs and previews."

Personally, I never use "As shot" - cameras are too dumb to consistently pick a good/correct WB, and get fooled by sunset skies and other bright colors in the image. Or, as may be the case with the M11, do something else screwy with that hint.

I set a camera-specific custom WB using the eyedropper on the gray patches of the ColorChecker imafe, at the same time I am creating the profile (otherwise the profile would be nonsense) - and that specific custom WB gets saved in the New Camera Raw Default, right alongside the calibration adjustments.

Of note, I shoot my ColorChecker sample images at: high noon ± 1 hour, with the CC in direct sunlight, and far away from anything reflecting any color that might skew the results (often in the middle of a wide street). That way I am pretty sure I am sampling true "solar spectral white," with as little Rayleigh Scattering and other color distortions as possible.

[elmars]

Over the last few days I have been making my annual family album. I mixed photos from the M11 with some from the iPhone. The magenta cast of the M11 photos is clearly noticeable and I can't bear it without correction. In the vast majority of cases, I adjusted the M11 photos because the magenta cast was distracting (tint from +20 to +10).

Even without comparison with other cameras, there are many subjects that do not tolerate magenta. This includes everything that has a lot of grey areas, but also sandstone. Here I find the magenta downright unbearable, whereas with grey it can even be interesting. See the example picture with sandstone below. First: tint as shot +20; second: tint +10.

I can understand those who like magenta-coloured pictures. But it doesn't always fit, it's too clearly a flavour. As a starting point, I would find a tint of +10 good. Or even better: a selection option in the camera.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[mrmalo]

After reading through this thread, there seems to be a divide between users who either think magenta-gate is a problem or not.

Which surprises me because;

• If you process your photos to your liking - getting Leica to change the "starting point" in whatever shape or form won't effect you...
• If you want a better starting point (consistent with other Leica cameras) so you can spend less time at a computer - then great!

Edited November 23, 2023 by mrmalo

[jaapv]

Oh, I would be surprised if Leica did not change their basic profile in due course. It is not a very difficult tweak and they like to keep the customers happy. 

[lct]

28 minutes ago, mrmalo said:

[...] If you process your photos to your own liking - getting Leica to change the "starting point" in whatever shape or form won't effect you [...]

Reminds me of the M240. A lot of people complained about reddish skin tones that others (like me) found easy to adjust in PP if needed. Leica changed the firmware but reds tended and still tend to clip since then. I suspect Leica will change the firmware of the M11 if i read well some good colleagues here but i just hope it won't complicate PP too much.

Edited November 23, 2023 by lct

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[don daniel]

The M240 did not have a problem with the white balance, but with the reds. You had to make an own profile to get the reds right. With the M11 there is no problem with the reds or with other colours. It simply has a faulty white balance. This is much easier to handle, both for us users and for Leica. Leica simply have to optimize the automatic white balance and to adjust the fixed white balance settings to a tint of +10.