M11 with 35 and 50mm Summilux F stop issue

[Jim Jansen]

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Hi.

I've been using my M11 (May 2023) with Voigtlander lenses and recently purchased the 35 and 50 1.4 Summilux FLE ASPH (both the newer V2 close focus).

Both lenses are recognized by the body but the recorded F stops are completely inconsistent. Just flat out wrong. The ISO and SS are recorded correctly.

I shot a series with each lens at 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4 and F16 in that order. The metadata for the 50mm shows F stops of 4, 2.4, 4.8, 5.6, and 16. The 35mm has 1.7, 4, 6.8, 5.6 and 16.

Only the F16 is correct. I've checked the metadata in FastRawViewer and C1. They are consistent.

I have the latest Firmware 2.01. Lens Detection is Auto.

Any thoughts. Is there some lens firmware I've missed.

Much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

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[andybarton]

Welcome to the world of “manual” photography, “dumb” lenses and rangefinder heritage, where lenses stay stopped down and you don’t compose your photograph through the lens.

There is no electronic or physical connection between an M lens and any M body that can pass f stop information. It was never even thought about on a film M, as an M with an internal meter would recognise the smaller aperture, but recording that anywhere was unnecessary (and impossible).  The only communication between lens and body is the focusing cam. If you look at the lens mount you will see no electronic gubbins or anything that moves when you change the aperture  

When the digital Ms came along, this information was thought to be useful, but Leica needed to be backwards compatible with all the M lenses going back to 1954. So they worked out a kludge, using the little window at the left above the lens. This reads the light, obviously regardless of the aperture, and compares it with the light passing through the lens, and then a guesstimate of the aperture is recorded in the EXIF.

The 6-bit code on the lens is only there to tell the camera which lens it is. The camera records that information and does some correction of the image based on that data, but nothing else.

All this is true of any M mount lens, whether Leica or Voigtlander or any other. 

There are dozens of similar threads here, dating back to 2006 when the M8 was released.

[jankap]

You can praise yourself happy in comparison with me. My camera does not even recognize, what lens is mounted. Irritating I admit.

[SNJ Ops]

I had this very same issue recently when the camera gave a reading of f1.2 from one of my lenses. Issue is that the fastest lens I own is f1.5, not a deal breaker for me, just one of those things I have discovered since getting my M10.

[lct]

2 hours ago, jankap said:

You can praise yourself happy in comparison with me. My camera does not even recognize, what lens is mounted. Irritating I admit.

Is your lens 6-bit coded? If so, you may wish to clean out any possible dirt from the coding areas of the lens or the camera.

Edited November 17, 2023 by lct

[jankap]

Hi, I have a Sigma fp.

[jankap]

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vor 41 Minuten schrieb lct:

Is your lens 6-bit coded? If so, you may wish to clean out any possible dirt from the coding areas of the lens or the camera.

Hi, I have a Sigma fp. Not to mention the various adapters to mount M, R, LTM, Canon, etc. lenses.

Edited November 17, 2023 by jankap

[lct]

1 minute ago, jankap said:

Hi, I have a Sigma fp. Not to mention the various adapters to mount R, LTM, Canon, etc. lenses.

Sigma cameras do not recognize Leica codes IINW.

[DadDadDaddyo]

As replied above, the body only attempts to estimate, guess, what f stop *might have been used for a shot. There's no mechanical or electronic communication between M body and M lens as to the state of the aperture. 

If you need the exif data to reflect actual factual f stop data, just get hold of an exif editor. There are a number of them around. Google it: "exif editor".

Some of them can work on batches. For example, if you discover, to your horror, that the camera's date/time claims your latest work is from the 1920s instead of the 2020s, you can change the whole group as a batch. 

If you're going to rely on exif data, probably best that you edit it if and as needed. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo
small typo

[Jim Jansen]

8 hours ago, andybarton said:

Welcome to the world of “manual” photography, “dumb” lenses and rangefinder heritage, where lenses stay stopped down and you don’t compose your photograph through the lens.

 

Thank you all for your input. It's true, I've only just entered the world of rangefinder cameras. It makes me wonder why "they" even try to to guesstimate an f stop . Have a space in exif, fill it. That seems kinda dumb too. I have to laugh

 

Thank you andybarton for your in depth explanation.

[don daniel]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb Jim Jansen:

 It makes me wonder why "they" even try to to guesstimate an f stop . Have a space in exif, fill it. That seems kinda dumb too. I have to laugh

This ensures that the camera reduces the vignetting to a reasonable extent with the selected lens profile. It should intervene more strongly when the lens is used wide open than when it is stopped down.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Jim Jansen said:

Thank you all for your input. It's true, I've only just entered the world of rangefinder cameras. It makes me wonder why "they" even try to to guesstimate an f stop . Have a space in exif, fill it. That seems kinda dumb too. I have to laugh

 

Thank you andybarton for your in depth explanation.

Of course you have to laugh. Leica uses clowns as designers to have their customers rolling in the aisles. 🤣

This system has a triple function.  To apply lens corrections, to control the TTL flash through a preflash, and as a bonus to get an estimated aperture in EXIF. 

[wizard]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb lct:

Sigma cameras do not recognize Leica codes IINW.

That's why jankap responded "You can praise yourself happy in comparison with me. My camera does not even recognize, what lens is mounted." 🙂 

Irony is sometimes hard to spot on the internet.

[lct]

The M11 does not recognize what lens is mounted in some circumstances so i missed this irony sorry but i have nothing against the Sigma fp i have no experience with.

[anbucco]

Am 17.11.2023 um 04:10 schrieb Jim Jansen:

Hi.

I've been using my M11 (May 2023) with Voigtlander lenses and recently purchased the 35 and 50 1.4 Summilux FLE ASPH (both the newer V2 close focus).

Both lenses are recognized by the body but the recorded F stops are completely inconsistent. Just flat out wrong. The ISO and SS are recorded correctly.

I shot a series with each lens at 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4 and F16 in that order. The metadata for the 50mm shows F stops of 4, 2.4, 4.8, 5.6, and 16. The 35mm has 1.7, 4, 6.8, 5.6 and 16.

Only the F16 is correct. I've checked the metadata in FastRawViewer and C1. They are consistent.

I have the latest Firmware 2.01. Lens Detection is Auto.

Any thoughts. Is there some lens firmware I've missed.

Much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

I really can't understand how you can spend more than 10,000 without at least a little bit of research into the product you are buying. It's almost like buying a Porsche 911 and then asking why the engine is in the trunk 😉

[Stef63]

1 hour ago, anbucco said:

I really can't understand how you can spend more than 10,000 without at least a little bit of research into the product you are buying. It's almost like buying a Porsche 911 and then asking why the engine is in the trunk 😉

When I read the OP, I immediately thought how long it would take before someone posted this kind of reply.

This thread reminds me of my early days in the Leica community after acquiring an M9 just days after 9/9/2009. Back then, I was a novice too, but I learned much by using the camera and also seeking advice from this forum. Being inexperienced isn't a fault, and I deeply admire those who tirelessly teach basics to new members. This nurturing attitude is what makes this forum an excellent place to keep visiting.  

[Edax]

20 hours ago, Jim Jansen said:

Thank you all for your input. It's true, I've only just entered the world of rangefinder cameras. It makes me wonder why "they" even try to to guesstimate an f stop . Have a space in exif, fill it. That seems kinda dumb too. I have to laugh

Don't laugh at Leica, laugh at us silly users. Leica stopped putting f stop data in exif with introduction of M10, by heavy user pressure they put it back it later firmware.

[setuporg]

On 11/17/2023 at 1:40 AM, SNJ Ops said:

I had this very same issue recently when the camera gave a reading of f1.2 from one of my lenses. Issue is that the fastest lens I own is f1.5, not a deal breaker for me, just one of those things I have discovered since getting my M10.

What if that's one of those early Karbe lenses, APO without marked as such.  1.2, without larked as such...:)

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[fenykepesz]

i had a fairly similar issue recently as yours, @Jim Jansen, and as i was receiving feedback from this forum, i was utterly surprised about how my M10-D computes the f-stop lens aperture value for the corresponding EXIF metadata field...!

[Kiwimac]

I’m not really sure why it’s important to know the aperture after the fact. 
 

As noted above, we shot film for decades with zero information unless you made manual notes in a notebook on location at the time. 
 

We only knew the film type after the fact because it was written on the space between the socket perforations and the image area!