M11-D?

[charlesphoto99]

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The M11-D has to be the most ironic camera Leica has ever produced - a digital camera that whose entire reason for being is purity of use and eschewing the bells and whistles of outward digital technology, and yet is wholly reliant for its functionality on - wait for it - outward digital technology. IMO it's a silly toy for rich kids (esp the 11, at this juncture with all of its known issues).

If Leica wanted to make a true 'D' camera, then it would be a digital M6 - no FOTOS connection, no EVF add on, DNG only, single, low and high continuous drive speeds set by switch, B for sensor cleaning, classic off shutter metering, format card by external switch(es), and that's it. The camera needs to be entirely self contained and self functioning. And with no lockups, no missing files, etc. 

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[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The M11-D has to be the most ironic camera Leica has ever produced - a digital camera that whose entire reason for being is purity of use and eschewing the bells and whistles of outward digital technology, and yet is wholly reliant for its functionality on - wait for it - outward digital technology. IMO it's a silly toy for rich kids (esp the 11, at this juncture with all of its known issues).

If Leica wanted to make a true 'D' camera, then it would be a digital M6 - no FOTOS connection, no EVF add on, DNG only, single, low and high continuous drive speeds set by switch, B for sensor cleaning, classic off shutter metering, format card by external switch(es), and that's it. The camera needs to be entirely self contained and self functioning. And with no lockups, no missing files, etc. 

External switches for all functions would be really great.

But really most M-D users just want to be rid of the rear screen more than they want to have an analog experience.

[fenykepesz]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb hdmesa:

External switches for all functions would be really great.

But really most M-D users just want to be rid of the rear screen more than they want to have an analog experience.

switches buttons knobs wheels...but, please, not too many, the m10d does it just right - and then those fake advance levers !

i know, i sound like an old broken Schellack gramophone record...

[ianforber]

On 7/6/2024 at 5:36 PM, charlesphoto99 said:

The M11-D has to be the most ironic camera Leica has ever produced - a digital camera that whose entire reason for being is purity of use and eschewing the bells and whistles of outward digital technology, and yet is wholly reliant for its functionality on - wait for it - outward digital technology. IMO it's a silly toy for rich kids (esp the 11, at this juncture with all of its known issues).

If Leica wanted to make a true 'D' camera, then it would be a digital M6 - no FOTOS connection, no EVF add on, DNG only, single, low and high continuous drive speeds set by switch, B for sensor cleaning, classic off shutter metering, format card by external switch(es), and that's it. The camera needs to be entirely self contained and self functioning. And with no lockups, no missing files, etc. 

Surely jpeg only, like film. That way we’d have to worry about blown highlights and crushed shadow shots and use that centre weighted metering properly 😁

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, ianforber said:

...blown highlights...

Most color negative films tolerate overexposure quite well.

[graphlex]

True about color negative films.  OTHOH, negatives are more complicated to color-balance when scanning.  (In my experience).   I could barely endure scanning slides.  With negatives? I settled for Noritsu etc.  In pure theory, Silverfast's Negafix can do the job.  Assuming you have infinite skill or patience. 

[JimmyCheng]

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I personally don't think the M11-D makes sense anymore. It reads the scene through the sensor like all other mirrorless out there. With the visoflex, it is essentially a mirrorless camera with manual focus only lens options. There is nothing film-like or old mechnical camera-like about it, even if you take away the screen. It does nothing but turns it into a nonesense stupid machine.
Sad but true, I think the m-d 262 is the last pure film-like D experience (maybe the first as well?). No bluetooth, no stupid thumb rest fake lever. ISO dial on the back (which M11-D apparantly goes back to). 

Also, being aluminium instead of black paint on brass wouldn't help either. I think Leica is gonna discontinue this line after the M11 gen. (Because it's not gonna sell well)

 

Edited July 8, 2024 by JimmyCheng

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Most color negative films tolerate overexposure quite well.

Yes, because with negative, you cannot clip highlights, like you cannot clip shadows with digital.

[ianforber]

10 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Most color negative films tolerate overexposure quite well.

True. When using old cameras that likely had shutters far slower than the indicated speed I always used Kodak BW400CN. Exposure latitude was such that it didn’t really matter whether you exposed it as though it was 100 or 1600 ISO!

[Datsch]

On 7/6/2024 at 5:36 PM, charlesphoto99 said:

no FOTOS connection, no EVF add on, DNG only, single, low and high continuous drive speeds set by switch, B for sensor cleaning, classic off shutter metering, format card by external switch(es), and that's it

Almost an exact description of the M-D, actually a bit more complicated  -- the M-D has no card format switch (you have to format cards in your computer); and there is only one continuous speed. There is however a special function for sensor cleaning which is more reliable than B (in case your finger slips ...)

[charlesphoto99]

18 hours ago, ianforber said:

Surely jpeg only, like film. That way we’d have to worry about blown highlights and crushed shadow shots and use that centre weighted metering properly 😁

No, RAW only, as then one would be forced to go into the digital 'darkroom' after the fact. As it is, though, I have no idea who the heck currently shoots jpegs with their $15k M's, and why...

[Stevejack]

11 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

No, RAW only, as then one would be forced to go into the digital 'darkroom' after the fact. As it is, though, I have no idea who the heck currently shoots jpegs with their $15k M's, and why...

Sam Abell would like a word with you... 😄

I agree though, I can't stand the thought of throwing away all that potential information in the file but honestly with modern mirrorless cameras having an EVF showing you the preview there is so little to do to the files that I can usually get away with a straight re-size and export as jpeg. The exposure triangle does have its inherent limitations, for jpeg shooters it becomes somewhat of a creative discipline to accept those limitations and keep their photography "pure" rather than allow themselves the crux (or hassle) of heading to the editing room.  

 

[evikne]

Deciding on what kind of camera the D-series should be might be the next big challenge. I wish it could go completely its own way, but if it always has to be based on the standard models, I'm afraid they'll get into trouble.

[setuporg]

M11-D will be the first camera with an innovative feeze indicator in the OVF. A red HI will blink when that happens.

[Olaf_ZG]

On 7/6/2024 at 6:07 PM, hdmesa said:

We still have about a year and a half's worth of special editions to be released. Perhaps not all of these will be made, but still:

• M11-D
• M11 Safari
• M11 White or Ghost
• M11 Reporter
• M11 LHSA
• M11 Black Paint

The end of the run for a digital M is the best time to buy one because the firmware issues are nearly all fixed.

It will already be special if it is working as it should…

[IkarusJohn]

I can’t quite get my head around a D model based on the M11 platform, even if they can get an M11 to work properly (how will you know if your camera has frozen?).  If the M11 is the way forward for M cameras, and MD will need to be a completely different camera …

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, Giacomo Busoni said:

Because the led will stay on, or because you won't be able to take the next photo. The most you can risk in case of a freeze is your last photo. 

Hmm, probably the next image as well, as you stab away at the shutter release.

For me, the ideal D version is one with the shutter closed, metering off the shutter, one MP count (no reduced MP nonsense), full frame (no cropping), AWB, DNG only and auto lens detection (none with no coding).  

I like having WiFi as an option and the Visoflex.  The internal memory and losing the baseplate with USB charging is also appealing, but not essential.  The above is.

Will it happen?  I doubt it.  The M11 is a wrong turn.  Leica might back off (as they did with the M(240)), but that seems unlikely.  I also seriously doubt the M11-D will break cover as there are too many issues with the base model.

[Syrjames]

I also support the metering off the shutter idea.

It makes the camera much more responsive (both in real action but also in 'perceived' feeling and sound) for instant shot and start up.

 

Edited July 15, 2024 by Syrjames

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[Fred Miranda]

8 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Hmm, probably the next image as well, as you stab away at the shutter release.

For me, the ideal D version is one with the shutter closed, metering off the shutter, one MP count (no reduced MP nonsense), full frame (no cropping), AWB, DNG only and auto lens detection (none with no coding).  

I like having WiFi as an option and the Visoflex.  The internal memory and losing the baseplate with USB charging is also appealing, but not essential.  The above is.

Will it happen?  I doubt it.  The M11 is a wrong turn.  Leica might back off (as they did with the M(240)), but that seems unlikely.  I also seriously doubt the M11-D will break cover as there are too many issues with the base model.

Honestly, I would be thrilled with an M11-D that has the same functionality as the M-D Type 262 without Wi-Fi or menu access, so a step back from the M10-D.

Visoflex live view could be useful for occasions when using Leica's new lenses with shorter MFD and for ultra-wide and telephoto lenses. This should be the only additional feature from the M-D. The main improvements for the M11-D would be a higher resolution/dynamic range sensor, the M11 thin body, 256GB of internal memory, and USB-C support. I'd prefer a mechanical-only shutter, but I understand many people like shooting with the electronic shutter despite the extreme rolling shutter effect. All other functions should remain the same, including metering from the shutter as in the pre-M11 series. It should not be a camera with extra features but rather a simple camera reminiscent of shooting film.

That said, I'm very satisfied with the output from the M-D files. Apart from the higher dynamic range, resolution, and thinner body, I'm not sure it's worth switching.

From checking the leaked manual, Leica is offering way more features than I want for the new "D", so I will likely not get one.

[T25UFO]

The expectation was for Leica to announce something special this year to mark the 70th anniversary of the M, the D version being the obvious candidate.  We are now more than halfway through the year and no special models so far.

Unfortunately [for Leica] 2024 will most likely be remembered for firmware issues rather than marking a special anniversary.  Add the recent SL3 over writing file issue to all the M freezing problems and Leica management must be tearing its hair out!

I have to agree  @IkarusJohn that it does seem unlikely a new M variant can be introduced until all these issues have been resolved.