The New M6 and its redesigned parts

[lefse]

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10 hours ago, 250swb said:

I've always bought one because it's a camera, but I know many people buy one as a status symbol and fashion accessory. And I guess it's that aspect of buying a camera, for history and prestige, that can lead people to concentrate on the wrong things. Leica have never 'pulled the old tricks' (whatever that means), they've improved the product as and when necessary, it shouldn't require customers to first sign every damned thing off. If you don't like it sell it.

I agree with you that they’ve consistently improved products. Even during hard times. And the new M6 is even better than the old (improved coatings for one).

You come off a bit aggressive, I’m sorry if I offended you. But this is a camera forum, not a photography forum. Discussing the camera and its parts is not an invitation to “if you don’t like it sell it”.

Cheers!

[250swb]

1 hour ago, lefse said:

I agree with you that they’ve consistently improved products. Even during hard times. And the new M6 is even better than the old (improved coatings for one).

You come off a bit aggressive, I’m sorry if I offended you. But this is a camera forum, not a photography forum. Discussing the camera and its parts is not an invitation to “if you don’t like it sell it”.

Cheers!

It is a sub-section of the International User Forum, as in using it, presumably to take snaps? Sorry if upset you by suggesting you sell your camera, but 'prestige' is an empty bourgeois concept at odds with being proud of the camera you use, like a carpenter can be proud of using a saw that has seen good service. So I'll apologise and instead encourage you to buy another, and post some photos in the forum.

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[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, lefse said:

Discussing the camera and its parts is not an invitation to “if you don’t like it sell it”.

Telling members here that "You want one because of the history, prestige and supreme mechanics." is not discussing the camera and its parts.

Long ago I learned that to avoid pushback online it is better to tell people what you would do or have done, not what they should do or what their motives are. (Occasionally, in the heat of the moment, I don't always obey my own rules)

Edited September 12, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[lefse]

5 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Telling members here that "You want one because of the history, prestige and supreme mechanics." is not discussing the camera and its parts.

Long ago I learned that to avoid pushback online it is better to tell people what you would do or have done, not what they should do or what their motives are. (Occasionally, in the heat of the moment, I don't always obey my own rules)

Good advice, thanks!

[lefse]

17 minutes ago, 250swb said:

It is a sub-section of the International User Forum, as in using it, presumably to take snaps? Sorry if upset you by suggesting you sell your camera, but 'prestige' is an empty bourgeois concept at odds with being proud of the camera you use, like a carpenter can be proud of using a saw that has seen good service. So I'll apologise and instead encourage you to buy another, and post some photos in the forum.

No need to apologize. I just didn't realize that I was etymologically wrong when using the word 'prestige' regarding film cameras that cost $5300 in 2023.
And yes, I'll buy another if they start manufacturing one in silver chrome - and promise not to ask any questions regarding its parts!

Now; I'm off to the carpenter forum to post pictures of my new saw (proudly). 🪚😃

[250swb]

1 hour ago, lefse said:

I just didn't realize that I was etymologically wrong when using the word 'prestige' regarding film cameras that cost $5300 in 2023.

Back in 1957 when Leica's were just a camera photographers would buy for work or a serious hobby an M3 body was (adjusted for inflation) $3230 in todays money. So the price has gone up pro rata if they are $5300 in 2023, but now there's a meter in the camera, a better film loading system, six frame lines, single stroke rather than double stroke, and with the M6 a faster film rewind. And this is when Leica aren't making nearly as many film cameras so the production becomes more costly per unit. I doubt the new M6 will hit 220,000 sales as did the M3.

[lefse]

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13 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Back in 1957 when Leica's were just a camera photographers would buy for work or a serious hobby an M3 body was (adjusted for inflation) $3230 in todays money. So the price has gone up pro rata if they are $5300 in 2023, but now there's a meter in the camera, a better film loading system, six frame lines, single stroke rather than double stroke, and with the M6 a faster film rewind. And this is when Leica aren't making nearly as many film cameras so the production becomes more costly per unit. I doubt the new M6 will hit 220,000 sales as did the M3.

On page three of the Leica M3 manual you can see the typical Leica user shooting landscapes from his convertible. Further down, illustrations of someone doing downhill skiing. I'm guessing Aspen or Chamonix. I'm not totally convinced that this camera's key demographic was the everyday, serious hobbyist - or worker, for that matter.

Considering labour cost, the price of $5300 is probably more than fair today. And comparable to the price of the upscale M3 in the 50's.

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[ianman]

14 hours ago, lefse said:

camera boutique

14 hours ago, lefse said:

You want one because of the history, prestige and supreme mechanics.

If those are your reasons for buying you may as well give up because you are going to be disappointed very quickly. And it’s a very bad idea to generalise your views.

[250swb]

20 minutes ago, lefse said:

On page three of the Leica M3 manual you can see the typical Leica user shooting landscapes from his convertible. Further down, illustrations of someone doing downhill skiing. I'm guessing Aspen or Chamonix. I'm not totally convinced that this camera's key demographic was the everyday, serious hobbyist - or worker, for that matter.

 

 

The bubble created by the Leica brochures and manuals did cause some people to live in that bubble, and still does. But I doubt the Leica high ups would have signed off on photos of people with their guts blown out to show the reality that the M camera was a professional camera. 

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Edited September 12, 2023 by 250swb

[250swb]

I said that the M camera was a professional camera, my mistake I was still thinking of the M3 and the 1960's. Look up the recently deceased Tom Stoddart and his photos of war zones and famines, you'll probably find of photograph of the man himself with his two M6 around his neck and it would be perverse to argue they were only a fashion statement.

[lefse]

40 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I said that the M camera was a professional camera, my mistake I was still thinking of the M3 and the 1960's. Look up the recently deceased Tom Stoddart and his photos of war zones and famines, you'll probably find of photograph of the man himself with his two M6 around his neck and it would be perverse to argue they were only a fashion statement.

Who's been arguing they were only a fashion statement? I could name countless of artists and photojournalists preferring to use the M3/M2/M4/M6 and so on... As could you, I'm sure.

That doesn't change the fact that it is (and always was) an upmarket product. What you call a bubble (I call it marketing) confirms this. I'm sure you agree that it wasn't 220 000 war photographers who bought the M3. Same goes for the M6. 🙂

Edited September 12, 2023 by lefse
typo

[Anbaric]

When the original M6 was launched, the Leica was still relevant as a camera used by professional photojournalists alongside their manual focus Nikons. This niche shrank with the advent of the AF SLR, but even 25 years ago Bill Pierce, in an often-quoted column, was writing about how the Leica and EOS were complementary tools. Digital changed all that, and professional film photography became a small, specialised area. From the MP with its deliberately retro features onwards, the Leica M range has primarily focused on the heritage, luxury goods and affluent enthusiast markets, lately supplemented by the hipsters with significant disposable incomes who seem to be the targets of most of the M6 marketing. I doubt many M6 reissues will ever make it into war zones, unless you are unlucky enough to be a Leica enthusiast living in a formerly peaceful country when the war comes to you. Of course to some large extent Leica has always been a product sold to wealthy amateurs because, after all, these are expensive cameras (I suspect most of the top of the range cameras from other manufacturers aren't sold to professionals either). But it's hard to deny there has been a shift from, say, Leica's no-nonsense approach in the 1990s, when they gave the impression they were simply selling high quality photographic tools, and their current marketing strategy, leaning heavily on past glories, which is more about selling a particular lifestyle to those who can afford it.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Anbaric

[Huss]

20 hours ago, Bronco McBeast said:

My personal opinion on this is they simply wanted to calm the internet Drama BS without changing anything in their actual production.
 

A lemon here and there, happens on exactly 100% production runs, Toyota, rolex, Pez candies... you nam it. Nothing to get excited about, except when a customer goes drama intergalactic berzerk. 
 

There is opinion, and there is fact.

  I like to go with actual facts.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Huss

[adan]

The main point about the "new" parts in the M6 (2022) is that Leica shifted to making parts in-house that used to be farmed out to suppliers.

Because out-sourcing parts began to result in supply problems:

- companies ceased making marginal "bespoke" items bought only by Leica (M8 LCD screens, M9 sensors, film-M circuit boards) - or in some cases (Kodak) simply got out of the business altogether.

- the revelation of overall supply-chain vulnerabilities by the Covid pandemic.

In the process, Leica made minor changes in the parts to conform to their own manufacturing capabilities. And while they were at it, made any design changes that seemed like good ideas functionally.

The RF/VF units were redesigned and improved quite a bit for the digital M10 and maybe M11 (viewfinder magnification; RF stability and "adjustability;" among other changes) - so why not for the film cameras also?

[lefse]

5 minutes ago, adan said:

The main point about the "new" parts in the M6 (2022) is that Leica shifted to making parts in-house that used to be farmed out to suppliers.

Because out-sourcing parts began to result in supply problems:

- companies ceased making marginal "bespoke" items bought only by Leica (M8 LCD screens, M9 sensors, film-M circuit boards) - or in some cases (Kodak) simply got out of the business altogether.

- the revelation of overall supply-chain vulnerabilities by the Covid pandemic.

In the process, Leica made minor changes in the parts to conform to their own manufacturing capabilities. And while they were at it, made any design changes that seemed like good ideas functionally.

The RF/VF units were redesigned and improved quite a bit for the digital M10 and maybe M11 (viewfinder magnification; RF stability and "adjustability;" among other changes) - so why not for the film cameras also?

Enlightening. Sounds like a clever move. Maybe this will make it easier to meet demand.

[Jipster]

4 hours ago, Anbaric said:

When the original M6 was launched, the Leica was still relevant as a camera used by professional photojournalists alongside their manual focus Nikons. This niche shrank with the advent of the AF SLR, but even 25 years ago Bill Pierce, in an often-quoted column, was writing about how the Leica and EOS were complementary tools. Digital changed all that, and professional film photography became a small, specialised area. From the MP with its deliberately retro features onwards, the Leica M range has primarily focused on the heritage, luxury goods and affluent enthusiast markets, lately supplemented by the hipsters with significant disposable incomes who seem to be the targets of most of the M6 marketing. I doubt many M6 reissues will ever make it into war zones, unless you are unlucky enough to be a Leica enthusiast living in a formerly peaceful country when the war comes to you. Of course to some large extent Leica has always been a product sold to wealthy amateurs because, after all, these are expensive cameras (I suspect most of the top of the range cameras from other manufacturers aren't sold to professionals either). But it's hard to deny there has been a shift from, say, Leica's no-nonsense approach in the 1990s, when they gave the impression they were simply selling high quality photographic tools, and their current marketing strategy, leaning heavily on past glories, which is more about selling a particular lifestyle to those who can afford it.

 

You seem to assume Leica only sells M6/MP/MA. What about the Q, the S, the SL, or the M11? Steve McCurry uses the SL2, for example, and Ralph Gibson the M11. Now, these are not youngsters and they are professional. Among "younger" ones, there is André Wagner (for M6). Absolutely true it takes a particular kind of photography to use Leica, it's not universal as it may have been (professional sports photo need not apply, so to speak), but your point is overblown, IMHO.

[Ouroboros]

23 hours ago, lefse said:

No one needs a film M. You get one because you want one. You want one because of the history, prestige and supreme mechanics.

 

That's bollocks.

I bought  one...umm...three because I spend my life photographing landscapes from my open top sports car and ski-ing in Aspen and Chamonix.

Read the manual.

[pgk]

On 9/11/2023 at 6:07 PM, lefse said:

Having read on multiple sites that the new M6 has redesigned parts, I wonder if anyone here knows which ones?

Apart from the obvious, namely electronics for the light meter, what mechanical parts have been redesigned?

Look on the bright side. My last two cars have been the 'same' named model from the same maker. Apart from the name, and possibly the maker's badge, they appear to have absolutely no parts in common whatsoever.

[Al Brown]

24 minutes ago, pgk said:

My last two cars have been the 'same' named model from the same maker.

You had the old MG and the new Chinese MG?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, Jipster said:

You seem to assume Leica only sells M6/MP/MA. What about the Q, the S, the SL, or the M11? Steve McCurry uses the SL2, for example, and Ralph Gibson the M11. Now, these are not youngsters and they are professional. Among "younger" ones, there is André Wagner (for M6). Absolutely true it takes a particular kind of photography to use Leica, it's not universal as it may have been (professional sports photo need not apply, so to speak), but your point is overblown, IMHO.

I'm not assuming that's all they make, though that is what I'm taking about - this is a thread about the M6 in the film M forum, after all. I don't know André Wagner, but I don't imagine Ralph Gibson and (long term Nikon user) Steve McCurry are paying for their own gear, and if they're not getting significant sponsorship on top of that, they're being short-changed. To be fair, an M11 is a perfectly reasonable camera for someone like Gibson to choose - I assume he's been using Leicas for over half a century, so why change now? But I'd be surprised if there are many young professional photographers doing the kind of serious work either of these legends were doing before they became famous who would select a Leica today. For one thing, how could they justify the expense? Where I live, an M6 with a humble 50/2 will set you back over £7000 today, a similar M11 kit over £10000. Add a 35/2 and that's another £3000 (the price inflation on these bread and butter lenses over the past couple of decades has been really quite remarkable). Complete the holy trinity of glass with a 90/2, and you're up to an eye-watering figure of well over £14000 for film or £17000 for digital, before you even think about anything faster or wider or APO, let alone a second body.

Like it or not, Leica are a luxury brand these days, and I don't blame them for taking the company in this direction rather than struggling to stay afloat. That isn't all they are, of course - as ever, they are also a manufacturer of superb equipment, but a rather less accessible one than they were at the end of the 90s, and less relevant to early career photographers (except the ones who can finesse Instagram stardom into sponsorship deals or use Leica's brand to enhance their own).