Is a Noctilux worth it?

[Stuart Richardson]

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Oh, I forgot to post photos. I don't think I can replicate your photos or those from the 75mm Noctilux. I also don't really take portraits much anymore...mostly rocks. But here are some that I think work in the "shallow depth of field/beautiful bokeh/sharp detail" category, which is where I would put the 75mm noctilux. These were with the 110mm f2 planar. Or maybe the 150mm Tele-Xenar? I can't remember, but that is also kind of my point.

 

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Edited September 2, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[trickness]

15 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I actually think we agree more than we disagree, and I am sorry if I touched a nerve, it was not my intention. I also was not really much referring to your post at all, but to Olaf's original question. And I certainly didn't intend to make this a contest! The original question was whether one thinks the Noctilux is worth it. I do not. That is not a function of it being a bad lens, but of it being wildly expensive and in most cases, impractical. That is my opinion, it need not be yours. I have not used the lens, but I have played with raw files and looked at a lot of pictures taken by it. I have used the 50mm f1 and f0.95 noctiluxes, and I have the same opinion of them. If it cost the same as a 75mm Summicron or a bit more, I would not make the same argument. If the question is "is a noctilux worth it?" my answer is still no. It is not no because they are not good lenses, it is not no in that they cannot even have a unique signature. It is a no because the way in which they are unique do not strike me personally as being particularly relevant to my photography (and I think most people's, to be honest). I just think that a lens that costs nearly 15,000 dollars for a lens that is extremely challenging to focus at the 1 stop where it differs in speed from its rivals is not worth it. I think that if the need is for an extremely narrow depth of field with a beautiful creamy bokeh that there are other platforms and lenses that can do that job better. Again, my opinion. You take very lovely photographs with the lens and I am glad that you find the value in it.

Thanks Stewart! I did not take offense to your post, although I obviously replied passionately. I myself was very unimpressed by this lens when it was announced, and it wasn’t until I actually used it that I realized how special it is. And that’s really my main issue with these kind of discussions… something so rare and specialized needs to be used so that one can make an accurate assessment of its capabilities. And I realize this is inherently difficult due to the nature of the product. I personally have never felt I can speak about something authoritatively if I’ve never used it. When I did get a chance to spend some quality time with the 75 Nocti, having shot with the 75 Summilux, and the 75 M and SL APOS, I realized very quickly that this was a very unique bit of glass. (Leica Akademie actually ended up posting one of my photographs that I took with the lens on their social media feed - I deliberately made the lens flare and blew some of the highlights but the end result of the image was really unique). So whenever I see discussions where this lens is dismissed, I immediately wonder if the person criticizing it has actually used it at all. Because I was that guy who thought it was stupid and expensive and unnecessary when it was announced. And then I used it, and spent the next two months figuring out how to acquire one.

I think the Noctis are all controversial for the reasons that you describe above. They are heavy, at anything other than wide-open they really don’t have any advantage over any much cheaper Leica glass (although I think the 75 is stunning at any aperture). As expensive as they are, I think it requires careful consideration when buying one as such a large investment for a narrow benefit can often lead to regret (hence the very healthy used market of all the Noctis).

BUT lean into that narrow benefit, and you can create some stunningly unique images. If you have a bunch of other glass and are looking for something different, something that will inspire you and challenge you, I think these lenses are highly recommended. I certainly would never recommend the 75 Nocti as someone is first or even fourth lens.

I sincerely appreciate your very kind post and your overall tone, if I sounded at all harsh or dismissive, I apologize. 

And if you ever find yourself in New York, you are welcome to try out my 75 Nocti! 😉

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[trickness]

Just now, Stuart Richardson said:

Oh, I forgot to post photos. I don't think I can replicate your photos or those from the 75mm Noctilux. I also don't really take portraits much anymore...mostly rocks. But here are some that I think work in the "shallow depth of field/beautiful bokeh/sharp detail" category, which is where I would put the 75mm noctilux. These were with the 110mm f2 planar. Or maybe the 150mm Tele-Xenar? I can't remember, but that is also kind of my point.

 

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Beautiful pictures! Very different rendering from the Nocti but gorgeous nonetheless.

Coincidently, I just got back from Iceland, and I took quite a few photographs of rocks myself 🤣

 

 

[trickness]

5 minutes ago, JCR33 said:

The M75 Noct is very heavy and bulky but pairing it with the SL2, the balance and grip is not too bad.

It can be sharp and soft at the same time and very interesting rendering.

 

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Agree. I cannot imagine using this lens on an M body. Hard work that would be.

[Stuart Richardson]

I am a bit too old to photograph attractive young women these days, haha, so I stick to immovable objects.

[Fedro]

the 75 Nocti is a wonderful tool, is it worth it? only you will know. In the Leica world yes of course, given pricing, in the greater scheme of things it is all relative

It is a show-off lens for Leica to show what it is capable of making on a manual lens wonderful and complicated 

I have one, I dont use it much when I do I am happy I did, when I dont there are other lenses that I enjoy using

Nothing like it on a RF, but then again not much competition at that level of craftsmanship on RFs anyways

[Fedro]

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I bought it when I could afford it, would I buy it again, probably not as I am not earning as well as I used to do

will I sell it, not for now: I enjoy using it and would lose too much money if I did anyways

it reminds me on my beloved canon 85 1.2 I used to have (for a much lower price) but it was not Leica and it was not all made of metal

pick your poison and be happy with it. peace

[hdmesa]

I would love to have a 75 Noct just for personal use for non-critical photos. But practically, if I were trying to get a lot of usable images out of a casual portrait session, I'd still rather use an R5 + RF 85 1.2 with its nearly infallible focus on the iris at f/1.2 even with subject movement.

As for focusing something like the Noct 75, maybe the CV 50 f/1 could come close to it for difficulty in nailing focus wide open. When I had that lens, what I did to avoid errors from subject or photographer shifting their body positions was to use the Visoflex/EVF – first I'd compose, move focus point to the eye, zoom, focus – then take the shot immediately without zooming out to recheck the composition. Bypassing zooming out will double the focus hit rate. The natural inclination is to think you've moved your composition, but you haven't because you're maintaining the position of the focus point on the eye when zoomed in. The only downside to this method is the expression on the face of your subject could have changed, but keeping the camera in continuous high and making every shot a short burst of a few frames can help.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by hdmesa

[pippy]

4 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Not sure if the difference in speed, 1.25 vs 1.5 (my current nokton) would justify the price. But the rendering might...

This - the rendering - is the only point to consider (if the outlay isn't an issue).

How often - honestly - do you shoot your 75mm Nokton wide-open? Does the rendering of the Noctilux used at f1.25 compared with what you get at f1.5 suggest the outlay is neccessary? If the answer to these questions is 'Often enough' and 'Absolutely' then buy the Noctilux.

Philip.

Edited September 2, 2023 by pippy

[agfa100]

This was at f 2.0 on a Sigma fp body.....

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[pippy]

1 hour ago, agfa100 said:

This was at f 2.0 on a Sigma fp body....

Seriously? Have you had a really good look at the focus-plane in your shot?

P.

Edited September 3, 2023 by pippy

[Ko.Fe.]

To me it is more about 75mm lens and framelines.

If I'm not mistaken, even with manual lens selection and electronically highlighted framelines...  no way to highlight only correct framelines.  Too many masks, I guess, to accommodate.   

I mean, paying huge price for the premium lens and get confused by 50/75 clutter. 

[trickness]

8 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

To me it is more about 75mm lens and framelines.

If I'm not mistaken, even with manual lens selection and electronically highlighted framelines...  no way to highlight only correct framelines.  Too many masks, I guess, to accommodate.   

I mean, paying huge price for the premium lens and get confused by 50/75 clutter. 

That’s why even Leica talks about the 75 Nocti being amazing on the SL bodies. EVF and the body/lens balance make for a much better user experience than on M bodies. I can focus on an eyelash at 1.25 and have it pin sharp.

Edited September 3, 2023 by trickness

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

Seriously? Have you had a really good look at the focus-plane in your shot?

P.

Looks like focus hit the girl's earring bang-on 🫠

[IkarusJohn]

13 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

I know, another question about a lens. And I also know, that only I can answer for myself. Yet, I am still interested in other opinions.

On my M I have a 24mm, several 50’s, and the nokton 75/1.5. I am seriously considering to add the 90mm apo as well as a SL75 apo.

A remark from @trickness about the Noctilux 75mm made me take a look into this lens. I never considered such lens before, but must admit the rendering is really nice, but so is its price.

But instead of a m90 and the SL75, and with selling the nokton, the Noctilux comes within reach (with some additional cash ofcourse).

But will a Noctilux be worth it? I know many here would like one, had one or still have one. If you had one, why did you sold it? If you want one, why don’t you go for it? 
 

thanks, Olaf

I think the first consideration is the framing.

I have 4 x 50s, but I still like the 75 even though the framing is very close.  This is partly because I have the 75 Summilux, which was Mandler’s favourite lens.  It’s a little tricky to nail the focus wide open, but the long focus throw helps a lot.  It’s one of my favourite lenses - soft wide and sharp stopped down.

I don’t have the 75 Noctilux, but I do have the 50/0.95.  Here are my thoughts:

• lot’s of talk how hard to focus the lens is, on the assumption that you always shoot wide open.  It’s better to have the whole subject in focus, so use the aperture ring
• the 75 Summilux has a thinner depth of field than the 50/0.95 Noctilux wide open
• is there any point in paying all that money, and not using it wide open all the time?  Sure.  It’s the image you want to get the critical bits in focus.  The lens still has a lovely drawing stopped down.  Conversely, only part of the subject in focus (an eyelash) isn’t even a good advertisement for the lens
• my 50/0.95 balances beautifully on my SL, and with the focus magnification is fantastic.  On my M10-D, with the EVF, I still get focus magnification
• I’ve had the APO Summircon-M 75/2, and couldn’t get it to reliably focus (focus throw too short), and the rendering wasn’t as nice as the Summilux
• I’ve also had the APO Summicron 90/2, and sold it as I just don’t like the 90mm field of view, and the lens was large and didin’t offer the rednering I liked
• I know that Jono likes both these APO lenses, and I might have enjoyed them if I’d given them more time, but I’ve loved my Noct and my 75 Summilux from the get go

Others views may differ, but that has been my experience.  Even though the framing is very close to the 50s I have, the 75 Summilux has a very special rendering.  I did list my Noctillux for sale on the forum, and was pleased it didn’t sell.  It has a very special rendering, and is a good all purpose 50, if you can be bothered to carry it (I have) and you remember to stop it down for the image.  

I’m sure the 75 Noctilux is just as addictive.  I’m not in the market for one, as I already have a fantastic 75 and I also have lovely 50s, ranging from antique (Summitar 50/2), through classic (50 Summilux), fast (Noct) and modern (50 APO Summicron black chrome - another keeper).  Adding the 75 Noctilux or the 90 Summilux wouldn’t really bring me much … though the 90 Summilux looks interesting …

https://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-90mm-Summilux-f-1-5-review-and-sample-photographs-Page-1.html 

Good luck!

[Ko.Fe.]

13 hours ago, trickness said:

That’s why even Leica talks about the 75 Nocti being amazing on the SL bodies. EVF and the body/lens balance make for a much better user experience than on M bodies. I can focus on an eyelash at 1.25 and have it pin sharp.

The huge benefit of framelines is space around, especially for 75. It opens vision.  While EVF is tunnelling it narrow.

And Leica been admitting what manual focus lens is better on AF body... While where is Sony AF adapter for M mount lenses, Leica ain't capable of none.

To me beauty of Noctilux series is not in too shallow DOF, but unique rendering of background of smaller apertures. 

Focusing on eyelash with manual focus lens is one thing. Keeping it in focus WO, while camera takes images is another. You breath, object breaths and it gets tricky. 

With AF (even so-so) you grab it in the focus and it holds to it in the servo mode.  

 

[trickness]

1 hour ago, Ko.Fe. said:

The huge benefit of framelines is space around, especially for 75. It opens vision.  While EVF is tunnelling it narrow.

 

Each system has strengths & weaknesses. With the SL/EVF I get exposure and focus preview that is highly accurate, and with my right eye in the EVF, I can see the entire scene in my left eye. Framelines are an approximation of what will be in the photo, they're not 100% accurate. I used film and digital M bodies for years, love M cameras for what they are, they are their own thing. But for the way I shoot, knowing 100% what I want in the frame and what I want to achieve photographically, the EVF helps me get there much more effectively. ESPECIALLY with fast lenses like the 75 Nocti and the 50 Lux 1.4 M, which is my most used lens. I see the picture before I even bring the camera up to my eye in any case.

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by trickness

[trickness]

Here's another wide open 75 Nocti shot - look at the color, the fine detail of the threads of his clothes and his whiskers,, the 3D pop - shot on SL2 (click on the image to see the detail). I added a little vignetting in post. 

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Edited September 3, 2023 by trickness

[Olaf_ZG]

Thanks to all for your replies so far, pro and contra, as well as great images shown.

I will only in 2024 be able to invest, so I still have some months to think and may be even try the lens.

Meanwhile, though I am interested in the 75, it is not only about the 75. The same question is valid for the 50’s and the latest 90lux which is at the same price level.

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[01af]

Am 2.9.2023 um 20:31 schrieb Huss:

I have a Nikkor 105 mm 1:1.8. Wide open would this provide less or more DOF than the Noctilux-M 75 mm 1:1.25?

More.

At portrait distance ... say, 1.5 m with a 75 mm lens on a 35-mm-format camera, you'd get a depth-of-field of approx. 2.5 cm at f/1.25. With a 105 mm lens on the same camera, you'd shoot from 2.1 m distance and get 3.5 cm depth-of-field at f/1.8.

.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

[...] the Summilux-M 75 mm has a thinner depth of field than the Noctilux-M 50 mm 1:0.95 wide open

Not true.

Given the example above (i. e. 75 mm lens on 35-mm-format camera at 1.5 m distance), the 75 mm lens gives a depth-of-field of 2.8 cm at f/1.4. For the same (umm, similar) picture with a 50 mm lens, you'd shoot from 1 m distance and get approx. 2 cm at f/0.95.