New to M11. Sharpness and detail issues. Haze, CA at wide aperture

[Max EPR]

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The following comments are from a hobbyist. It’s based on my knowledge of Leica so far. The name Summilux, or any Leica lens name, simply refers to the aperture range and expected depth of field, but not necessary “sharpness” A cheap Panasonic LX10K Digital Camera with 24-72mm F1.7-2.8 has a Leica SUMMILUX Lens. But the photos from that camera are what you would expect from a $400 camera even with a Summilux lens. My understanding is the name Leica Summilux has been around since about 1960. Over the past 63 years, there have been many improvements in construction, coatings, and glass. My current APO M 50mm 2.0 Summicron is sharper at f2.0 than any Summilux 50mm at f2.0. or f1.4. My newish M 75mm Summarit is probably sharper at f3.4 than older Summilux lenses at f3.4. I have a current M 28mm f1.4 Summilux that is very sharp, but has an issue with CA with strong back lighting. I often use my 28 all day at f1.4 and never have a CA issue, because I know it’s weaknesses and what not to do.. Jaapv summed it up “You are seeing the way that a high-resolution sensor manages to record everything an older lens can render. You would probably be more happy with a modern APO lens with its more precise look”

[ColdShower]

16 hours ago, jaapv said:

All these examples are perfectly sharp in the plane of focus, and show perfectly normal out of focus areas.

That is the way images made wide open with a fast lens look and the reason that people use them.  There is nothing wrong with your gear. 

You are seeing the way that a high-resolution sensor manages to record everything an older lens can render. You would probably be more happy with a modern APO lens with its more precise look.

Thank you so much for your reply. I have the 50mm APO Summicron F2 same issue. Today I shot a focus chart and the aberrations are consistent throughout. I'm comparing it towards a 50mm f1.4 from sony and I can see razor sharp edges. For some of the commercial work I do it's really important that I get that extra mile in detail (Jewelry, hair, clothing texture) I can always use my Sony Camera of course but I've heard many colleagues rave about the sharpness of the M premium glass and not seeing it. or at least get half of the quality than when shooting with my A7RIV which it would be a comparable sensor. At first I thought that the Sensor may have an Aintialias filter but I just read that it doesn't 

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[ColdShower]

15 hours ago, thighslapper said:

As with Jaap ...... from my experience most of the Summilux lenses exhibit this at f1.4. It's a trade off between extreme narrow DOF and the concomitant aberrations that go with it. Just try a Noctilux and you will see just how bad things can get wide open in the wrong circumstances  ..... 

The Apo 50/2 is pretty well faultless at f2 and still gives a narrow enough DOF to get the look you want ..... and is one of the sharpest Leica lenses I ever used. It does come at a wallet busting price though. 

f1.4 is for very specific conditions and artistic requirements ...... I don't think Leica ever envisaged using f1.4 as an aperture for general daylight snapping. Your car may be capable of 160mph but that's not what the manufacturers expect you to do all the time. 

ps. you also have to factor in the default sharpening applied to the RAW image ..... and this varies greatly between camera manufacturers. Simple OOC comparisons can be misleading. 

Thank you for your reply. So getting tack sharp portraits while shooting during the day won't be happening with my M11...which is pretty much what I do. However I enjoy everything about this camera. If I can't shoot at f1.4 I better off getting an f2.8 cheaper Voigtlander... Which I own a few and they seem to be bulkier but sharper for sure. Perhaps Leica sacrifices making lenses as small as possible rather than efficient as possible to handle 60 MP. These two lenses promise to be redesigned for higher MP (Summilux 35-50 f1.4) But I compared them with prior version and other than close focusing (which the rangefinder doesn't support) I see no difference in sharpness.  I wish they would have kept the M11 at a native 24-26MP sensor instead.

However I like the look of certain images I get with these lenses.

[ColdShower]

15 hours ago, jaapv said:

Whilst I disagree that f1.4 is only for occasional use, a photographer should adapt his camera settings to his subject. Saying “I bought these lenses for their aperture and that is what I will use” is not rational and will lead to disappointment. 

I concur with this response. I spend almost 12k in these lenses to shoot at f1.4 in brought daylight. One of the reasons why I went M11 as well as it has ES avoiding me using ND filters.

[ColdShower]

15 hours ago, darylgo said:

@ColdShowerWelcome to Leica and the forum.  Rangefinder cameras and Leica in particular will often times require effort to get optimum quality.  The first thing I do with a body is check rangefinder alignment.  Once a body is known to be aligned properly each lens is checked for compatibility with that body, i.e. rangefinder alignment.  By my rough estimate a 24mp camera improperly focused gives 6mp resolution and aberrations will increase.  Rarely, do I get new Leica equipment that doesn't require a trip to Leica for proper calibration.  The evf use makes this a moot point, yet all Leica lenses are not equal and if comparing different samples closely it becomes clear that subtleties exist, some are simply bad samples.  

A few other considerations, while you mention you shoot street and portraits your examples show landscapes, a more demanding subject.  60mp non ibis sensors require exceptional technique not unlike looking through binoculars and holding them steady.  The Q  has ibis and computational DNG's sooc, the M11 doesn't except for 6 bit changes.  Lastly, some members report issues with their particular M11 bodies at certain shutter speeds, similar to shutter bounce issues.  

 

Thank you for the insight. Yes I do check the range finder for misalignment. I basically used an iPad to pull focus and visually see if a misalignment exist. Everything seemed find. 
 

I posted some of my portrait work here under my profile and those were taken with my Sonys and HSS.

but the reason why I show these samples (landscape) is because they depict the issues much clearer while allowing me to slow down and control the camera for shakes rather than moving on the streets or under a control environment. 
 

I really appreciate everyone’s feedback and I look forward to learning more from this community. one of the things I love after 35 years is that I never stop learning photography. 

[ColdShower]

15 hours ago, jaapv said:

I never had calibration issues with new Leica cameras since the 1980ies. I would argue it is the exception rather than the rule and the OPs images are well-focused. However, 60 MP does amplify everything, from motion blur to lens aberrations, mainly caused bij the insane magnification at 100%. The main reason for the complaint I see is using the lenses indiscriminately outside their application envelope. 

Thank you jaapv.
One of the main reasons I get a lens that can shoot with a wide aperture is to use it at such wide ranges. When I shoot daylight portraits I like that background separation and also for shooting in lower light situations. I will upload new samples of portraits taken with daylight to illustrate more accurately my issues. Nonetheless I'm sticking with this system, for my personal projects and own enjoyment while I continue to discover and get better at it.

[ColdShower]

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14 hours ago, 01maciel said:

To my eyes, there seems to be something wrong with the pictures shown. The first thing I would suspect is an incorrect white balance setting. My 35mm Summicron (latest version) shows similar behaviour on the M10

I had to downsize the images since I can only upload up to 2MB and the forum applies additional compression I believe. Hard to depict this issues after the compression is applied. I will try to post some magnified shots to showcase the my situation. One think that I had once happen to one of my sony cameras was a misaligned mount, that cause the lens not to sit parallel to the sensor. I think there it could be some of that. I will continue to experiment and ultimately send my camera and lenses to Leica Miami, which is where I live. 
Thank you for your time to respond.

[ColdShower]

14 hours ago, spydrxx said:

I'd say you failed to do your homework here. Suggest you read Erwin Puts' analyses of these lenses to understand their characteristics. If I've got the right versions from your text, they were designed for film rather than digital sensors. I too have and use Canon FD lenses on digital, and understand that they render differently on digital than Leica lenses of the era. The old adage that many lenses (not APO) are at their best stopped down 2 stops will probably resolve the sharpness issue for you even if it disappoints you in not shooting your chosen subjects (esp. landscape) wide open.

I usually rent gear before buying it. But after hearing everyone talk about sharpness and the heritage of Leica I felt that if I could go by the reputation. Especially when going straight for the Summilux 50 and 35mm V2 which Leica States on their site to have better controlled CA, Sharpness and that they have been optimized for higher res.
I do Have the Summicrom 50mm APO f2, and this lens too fails to be razor sharp like I'm used to with my 50 f1.5 or 35 1.4 from Sony. 

In the end I may have an issue camera or calibration wise, I continue to shoot and make the best out of it as it's a joy to shoot with these cameras.
 

[ColdShower]

4 hours ago, Max EPR said:

The following comments are from a hobbyist. It’s based on my knowledge of Leica so far. The name Summilux, or any Leica lens name, simply refers to the aperture range and expected depth of field, but not necessary “sharpness” A cheap Panasonic LX10K Digital Camera with 24-72mm F1.7-2.8 has a Leica SUMMILUX Lens. But the photos from that camera are what you would expect from a $400 camera even with a Summilux lens. My understanding is the name Leica Summilux has been around since about 1960. Over the past 63 years, there have been many improvements in construction, coatings, and glass. My current APO M 50mm 2.0 Summicron is sharper at f2.0 than any Summilux 50mm at f2.0. or f1.4. My newish M 75mm Summarit is probably sharper at f3.4 than older Summilux lenses at f3.4. I have a current M 28mm f1.4 Summilux that is very sharp, but has an issue with CA with strong back lighting. I often use my 28 all day at f1.4 and never have a CA issue, because I know it’s weaknesses and what not to do.. Jaapv summed it up “You are seeing the way that a high-resolution sensor manages to record everything an older lens can render. You would probably be more happy with a modern APO lens with its more precise look”

 

Yes. I understand the naming of Leica glass are based on their aperture. I believe that the newest 35-50 F1.4 Summilux is the same exact optical formula since the film days. And thus why I like about this system. I just wish I can have the cake and eat it too hahaha Sharp images with the filmic look or "Leica Look" All this comments have been incredibly helpful.

[ColdShower]

8 hours ago, Huss said:

When Leica recently shipped a whole bunch of the new 35 FLE II lenses with broken aperture blades, that any basic QA process would have picked up, that excuse falls apart.  And each one of those lenses had that little signed quality inspection card!

Ouch that must be upsetting after dropping that cash. 
I notice that the finish of my Leica Q3 lens is different than the body of the Q3 Whereas the finish of the lens on my Leica Q2 matches the finish of the body. It is also a different different finish from all my 4 Leica lenses I own. This is the typical sandblasted finish prior anodization from overseas manufacture. Perhaps they have started outsourcing some parts overseas, which is when a lot of companies that had a control manufacture start having QC issues. Again not claiming, just speculating...

[Jeremy Bunting]

The 35 'Lux FLE is capable of producing insanely sharp images on the M11, even wide open, and not just at crazy fast shutter speeds. Click through for hi-res and to magnify. M11/35 'Lux/wide open at 1/125.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

If you're not getting satisfactory sharpness from any of your lenses (even the 50 APO!), something is definitely up.  I can't speculate as to what.

 

[250swb]

The OP clearly doesn't do any post processing because 'Auto Color' in Photoshop fixes the colour problems with the files and also adds the necessary colour contrast to make the images look sharper.

[pgk]

7 hours ago, ColdShower said:

I have the 50mm APO Summicron F2 same issue. Today I shot a focus chart and the aberrations are consistent throughout. I'm comparing it towards a 50mm f1.4 from sony and I can see razor sharp edges. For some of the commercial work I do it's really important that I get that extra mile in detail (Jewelry, hair, clothing texture) I can always use my Sony Camera of course but I've heard many colleagues rave about the sharpness of the M premium glass and not seeing it. or at least get half of the quality than when shooting with my A7RIV which it would be a comparable sensor. At first I thought that the Sensor may have an Aintialias filter but I just read that it doesn't 

I suspect that you are seeing the result of comparing an mainly optically produced image with a software corrected one. M glass is optically good but doesn't have a vast amount of software correction applied since the only information the camera has is the 6-bit code which tells it which lens is fitted. It guestimates aperture but I'd be surprised if it applies any correction based on this. The Sony integrates optical image with software correction and the result will be optimised for whichever factors Sony deem more effectively carried out by software. The lens will communicate far more data to the camera to enable this optimisation.

The bottom line is that you are comparing what is basically optical to optimised optical/software output and this will produce different results. I have stated many times that I use Leicas not because they produce the 'best' images technically but because I like using rangefinders and their diminutive lenses. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that subscribes to a Leica 'look' (there are many depending on which lenses and eras you are into) and enjoy them for what they are and because I enjoy using M rangefinder equipment I take 'better' images with it (though not necessarily the technically 'best').

[LocalHero1953]

To the OP: you say the images you posted are SOOC. Is that JPGs direct from the camera? Or raw images with no extra processing? If the latter, what software are you using for raw conversion? 

NB With the M11 and arguments about how to get sharp images, I suggest you try the same shot handheld and on a tripod. That tell you if your handheld technique is up to it.

Edited July 21, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, ColdShower said:

I do Have the Summicrom 50mm APO f2, and this lens too fails to be razor sharp like I'm used to with my 50 f1.5 or 35 1.4 from Sony. 

Shot handheld? Because this is definitively not the case. You are probably seeing the micro-motion blur displayed by high-resolution sensors. 

[ColdShower]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Shot handheld? Because this is definitively not the case. You are probably seeing the micro-motion blur displayed by high-resolution sensors. 

Thank you @jaapv I'm getting my camera and lenses checked. I'm starting to see now a slight vertical misalignment in the rangefinder. and it repeats when I turn the camera in portrait mode. 

[ColdShower]

9 hours ago, Jeremy Bunting said:

The 35 'Lux FLE is capable of producing insanely sharp images on the M11, even wide open, and not just at crazy fast shutter speeds. Click through for hi-res and to magnify. M11/35 'Lux/wide open at 1/125.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

If you're not getting satisfactory sharpness from any of your lenses (even the 50 APO!), something is definitely up.  I can't speculate as to what.

 

These are really sharp indeed. Thank you for these samples. Getting my gear checked up for sure something is up and I notice now a slight vertical misalignment in my range finder

[ColdShower]

6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

To the OP: you say the images you posted are SOOC. Is that JPGs direct from the camera? Or raw images with no extra processing? If the latter, what software are you using for raw conversion? 

NB With the M11 and arguments about how to get sharp images, I suggest you try the same shot handheld and on a tripod. That tell you if your handheld technique is up to it.

Yes straight out of camera, just shadow lift so you can see the details because I shot them with Highlight priority metering mode. Tripod same results. I mentioned in prior post that after close examination last night I noticed a slight vertical misalignment and I'm going to get my gear checked. Thank you for your comment.

[jaapv]

8 minutes ago, ColdShower said:

Thank you @jaapv I'm getting my camera and lenses checked. I'm starting to see now a slight vertical misalignment in the rangefinder. and it repeats when I turn the camera in portrait mode. 

That should not affect lens performance.

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[ColdShower]

6 hours ago, pgk said:

I suspect that you are seeing the result of comparing an mainly optically produced image with a software corrected one. M glass is optically good but doesn't have a vast amount of software correction applied since the only information the camera has is the 6-bit code which tells it which lens is fitted. It guestimates aperture but I'd be surprised if it applies any correction based on this. The Sony integrates optical image with software correction and the result will be optimised for whichever factors Sony deem more effectively carried out by software. The lens will communicate far more data to the camera to enable this optimisation.

The bottom line is that you are comparing what is basically optical to optimised optical/software output and this will produce different results. I have stated many times that I use Leicas not because they produce the 'best' images technically but because I like using rangefinders and their diminutive lenses. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that subscribes to a Leica 'look' (there are many depending on which lenses and eras you are into) and enjoy them for what they are and because I enjoy using M rangefinder equipment I take 'better' images with it (though not necessarily the technically 'best').

Right one @pgk I will report back after I get my camera checked. last night I noticed a slight vertical misalignment and this could be it. I really enjoy shooting with a range finder. In fact my dad taught me how to shoot with them when I was 10 years old...I find the M11 a great way to connect with the essence of photography down to its basic.
I feel that I've been taking for granted the skills involved to capture a great image with any of my Sony's  Canon's or Fuji's I own. Kind of hard to take a bad picture with them, even my 4 year old can point the camera at me , shutter priority and we are done. 
the M11 is my EDC camera at the moment and I'm enjoying every moment. though I'm taking it to get it checked because I noticed a slight vertical misalignment in the range finder (Horizontal is fine) if this makes sense. Thank you