M11 Motion blur is driving me crazy(!)

[dpitt]

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2 hours ago, Roderikvn said:

There is definitely a ‘issue’ with the unsharpness caused by movement.

This image with a 28mm and a shutterspeed of 180 is sharp in most of the image except where the people walk. They are not sharp. Very frustrating but probably solved by using a lower resolution…

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The crop is about 3x compared to FF.
Your 28mm will act as 90mm eq that way. So even if the objects are not moving you are only at 1/2FL with 1/180. This is even visible on the edges of the stones. So if you intend to crop anyway you should definitely choose a shorter exposure time to counter any camera shake.

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[lct]

1/(2f)s are fast enough shutter speeds to avoid camera shake, in my grandfather with steady hands experience, at any resolution . It is my default setting in auto iso mode with the M11. @Roderikvn's issue, if any, is not camera shake but motion blur IMHO.

Edited February 29, 2024 by lct

[jaapv]

37 minutes ago, lct said:

1/(2f)s are fast enough shutter speeds to avoid camera shake, in my grandfather with steady hands experience, at any resolution . It is my default setting in auto iso mode with the M11. @Roderikvn's issue, if any, is not camera shake but motion blur IMHO.

That depends on the speed of your subject...
People tend to forget that higher resolution does not create motion blur, it only records blur that is already there and that was invisible at lower resolution - and then they magnify the image to the huge size allowed by the resolution and they see things they didn't see before - which they wouldn't see in a more sensible viewing situation.

[250swb]

On 5/29/2023 at 10:29 PM, Nitnaros said:

It’s not a hand holding or shutter speed issue, if I would need to guess 

I had no blur issues when shooting with the Fuji GFX 50R - 50 megapixels, no IBIS. But of course auto-focus. So what it tells me is that we can hand hold a 50 megapixel camera and get sharp images.

my speculation is that it relates to some kind of focusing issue 

best - Peter 

Holding a heavier camera steady is far easier than holding a light camera steady, imperceptible hand movements need to overcome more inertia . Even without including the lens a GFX 50 is a fair bit heavier than an M11 body. And while the GFX is not a large camera by any means there is more to get hold of and help brace it, especially when you consider it also has a grip.

[lct]

If there is any issue with the M11 it is not motion blur but camera shake and the moves of the subject matter have little relevance with that. Now i don't see any camera shake in the photo.

[DrM]

When I enlarge the photo you uploaded the foreground seems to be in focus. Is this not a focus error? Or indeed field curvature? 

Edited March 2, 2024 by DrM

[Knightspirit]

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Interesting thread - I didn't read through every post, but I did want to say that I too had to come to grips with the M11 "shake". My first lens was the 28mm Elmarit 2.8 and I immediately realized that shooting at 1/30 - 1/60 wasn't cutting it. I learned to hold the camera better and press evenly on the shutter button and all of my results are better now. I am now getting sharp results with every lens. I had to do some tripod tests to prove to myself that it wasn't a camera issue. Everyone should do that! 

[R4p70r]

Same experience when I use my fresh M11 on a trip that I have to hold the camera very still and steady even on bright daylight. Either use some methods to hold still and steady or use higher shutter speed / increasing ISO for faster shutter speed. I was just to spoiled by my high pixel Sony cameras with IBIS.

[dugby]

I use this Manfrotto Modo,  regularly on my various Ms

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[kiwidad]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:12 AM, wijsbroek said:

Hi everyone, 

Photography has been my love for over 30 years now. I've owned a lot of camera's (film and digital). I recently switched from medium format Fujifilm (GFX-50r, which was big and heavy like a brick) to Leica M11. A dream came true. I love everything about the camera except two things. First is dust on the sensor. I only use one lens and never take it of. Still there's more and more dust on the sensor over time. Is this normal? Isn't the camera sealed?

But my GREAT problem is... motion blur. I've never experienced it this way. I know it's said to be a resolution thing, but coming from 50MP medium format, I was quite used to high resolution and never experienced these kind of problems.

I'm using a new Summilux 35/1.4 (not the newest, close range focussing version, but the previous). I'm having most problems shooting (almost) wide open. It's nearly impossible to take a non-motion-blurred shot. It's not focussing, That looks okay from a distance. But zooming in... everything has motion blur (or something else?). Even at 1/6500s...

Of course I have been practising a lot with the M11. Please look at this test shot. Looks okay, but then... when you zoom in... I know, I know this is an extreme close-up, but still I was used to a quite sharp (motion free) part of the picture, using bij GFX camera. I do not pixel peep at all!

I really hope someone can give me the golden tip. It's driving me crazy and I'm thinking about selling my dream camera. This really makes me sad.

Leica M11
ISO 64
1/6500s
F/1.4
Processed in Capture one (used Light too, no difference).

Thank you in advance!

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 lens isn't sharp at f1.4 away from the center! you should be able to get decent 100% crops. I have compared raw files taken on an M11 with several of the newer Summilux lenses with Voigltander lenses and they were much sharper than your image.

No way you have shake at that shutter speed. 

Is it possible you missed critical focus? were you focussing with the viewfinder, rear screen for visoflex?

I have noticed similar perceived issues myself and some lenses just are not sharp wide open. Leica aren't immune from bad samples either. Try the test for decentering and see what you get. Try  stopping down to maybe F4 ands if it's sharper at same shutter speed!

I have gone thru the same lack of crispness at slower speeds and switching to the electronic shutter definitely helps.

[Photoworks]

for 2 years of m11 and still have shake.

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[wizard]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Photoworks:

for 2 years of m11 and still have shake.

That's the kind of shake I truly love 🙂. Terrific image.

[proenca]

Well, to be honest with @wijsbroek, I sympathize with the frustration.

Rangefinder lenses are calibrated to a certain distance with the rangefinder. "before" or "after" that distance, the rangefinder patch is not 100% accurate.

I've shot since the M6TTL, going throught the M7, MP, M8, M9, M240, M262 and M10 - and pretty much all M lenses, from Elmars to all Noctiluxes and back.

One thing I tried to learn always, and did involve a bit of tedious test shots, is practice at difference distances and then leaning a bit further or back, to correct for the not 100% accurate rangefinder patch.

It takes time, to know the lens and camera combo - and even so, its not 100% accurate. But a very good guess can be had.

After that, other factors can induce what you are seeing : camera shake, lens itself ( focusing is on the edges of the frame, a typical struggle for older M lenses ) and of course, the dreadful knock on the camera , that put the rangefinder mechanism out of alignment.

Even sending the camera AND lens to Wetzlar, they get calibrated as a pair and again, its calibrated on point to a specific range and other ranges are a bit off - I've sent my M9 , MP and M10 with several lenses.

So after few dozen years of rangefinder, I called it "quits" and went to the SL route - while M is very satisfying to hold and gave me many joys, a simple and compact package, but I went away from it - with a bit of sadness - because I like sharpness and as @jaapvsaid correctly - the problem was always there. Getting 60mp sensors only exacerbates the problem.

There is a reason while Leica stuck with the 24mp sensor for ages - was "easy" on older lenses.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, proenca said:

was "easy" on older lenses.

And older users... Don't underestimate the ravages of time on our eyes.

[proenca]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

And older users... Don't underestimate the ravages of time on our eyes.

oh I do not

reason being, I now use a SL - wish I could use the M - its my favorite camera of all time and system, but alas, my eyes are more uncoupled than a beater M3