Contemplating Forgiveness--Why Do We Accept the M8?

[carstenw]

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I adore my M8, and I don't feel the need to forgive it. It has removed back pains, allowed me to bring more clothes on trips, and emptied my bank account (oops). At the end of my possession of the Canon 5D, I went through all shots I had taken in my entire life, and selected 36 shots which I thought were the best shots I had ever done. Most were done with the 5D, despite the few months (just less than a year) it had been in my possession. If I were to redo that today, after having owned the M8 for about a year, there would hardly be any 5D shots left. The M8 and its lenses makes superior photographs.

 

The only thing I cannot forgive Leica for is selling anything to tummydoc. What a bad decision that was. This guy is the anchor of my ignore list, as I very rapidly confirm every time I see someone quoting him. I wish everyone would dump him on their own ignore lists, so that I wouldn't even have to look at the quoting.

[ttriolo]

Tony,

 

Do you define malfunction to include quirky behavior, such as fast scrolling? I've had the camera do some odd things, but nothing I would consider to be a malfunction -- meaning a loss of operation.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

 

I define malfunction as anything that fails to function as designed or intended. By that definition, not one M8 out there currently functions as designed unless you want to claim that Leica intended for its AWB to be this horrid. When you add all the other issues that plague many, if not most M8s, you have to conclude that this camera is still not ready for prime time, even now, a year after its introduction. The latest firmware update has done nothing to address the major problems that continue to haunt this camera. I fear that we will not see real improvement until the M9 rolls out.

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[stunsworth]

Carsten, I have an M8 and a Canon 5D. Since buying the M8 in January I haven't used the 5D. Of course this is a reflection on the focal lengths I use. At this point in time I can only see myself using the 5D if I need focal lengths greater than 90mm and that's not going to happen very often.

 

As for Tummydoc, he provides hours of unintended amusement provided you don't take him seriously.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped} The latest firmware update has done nothing to address the major problems that continue to haunt this camera. I fear that we will not see real improvement until the M9 rolls out.

 

Ok, that is just a ludicrous statement!

 

Yes, AWB is broken.

 

B-R-O-K-E-N! Malfunctioning; not working as designed. They haven't said they fixed it yet.

 

And I believe they are working on it, I'm sure. But not that I care, because AWB is most often just wrong anyway for colour work. No camera on earth can "guess" skin tones from an average scene. (Heck, no film can either; this is why colour labs existed).

 

Sigh. If you know what you're doing, the M8 has been ready for prime time since the recall was done, IMO. That was what? Around February?

 

There are no "major problems" that "plague this camera" if what you want to do is make excellent photographs.

 

If you don't know what you're doing, the M9 will not save you from yourself.

 

Geez. I'm getting cranky now! It means I should eat, get back to work, and stop checking in on this (except I loved Hank's stuff! I don't know how you'd call his work--or any number of other people's--the results of a malfunctioning camera!!! LOL!)

 

Ok, that's enough of this thread once and for all.

[Guest Walt]

Jamie-

 

It sounds like Leica has pretty much hit the mark for you with the M8, and both you and they should be pleased. If you are representative, they'll have a hit. Those who don't like the camera or are disappointed with Leica's support will sort themselves out. I had hoped that the concerns of those having problems with the camera could be heard by Leica and that they would be responsive. I doubt that now, particularly if most users feel as you do.

 

On my experience with the shutter release, which you so off-handedly dismiss, I would like to explain. I began photography as a teenager, had my first Leica at the age of 18 (42 years ago) and spent several years as a freelancer and stringer for Globe Photo. I have used not only Leicas, but a Pentax Spotmatic, Olympus OM-4, twin Rolleis, Hasselblads, and digital cameras from Nikon, Canon, Sony and Ricoh.

 

In my experience--and I make this not as a rhetorical comment, but a description of my experience--the M8 has the roughest, most inconsistent shutter release I have ever used on a camera. It is a real-world, day-to-day problem for me. I base this on experience with five samples of the body. If the shutter were consistently rough, that might be acceptable. But the feel changes constantly and I cannot learn how much pressure is required to consistently release it. That interferes with the timing of my work and I find that unacceptable. I accept that that is not your experience, but it is mine whether you like it or not.

 

I have now found a way to lubricate part of the mechanism with a Teflon material and I have done one of the two bodies I am using, the one that was roughest. The operational difference is stunning. I am waiting to see if this produces other adverse effects on the camera (like contamination of electrical contacts, gumming, etc.), because it would be better not to use lubrication in this area. In the meantime, this treatment has created, if not the best shutter release I've ever used, a very good one.

 

Leitz was once about excellence in producing a simple, sturdy, trouble-free camera that no one had to think about or talk about. It was never more or less than that. Perhaps those days are just over. In the meantime, how about letting others have their experience and opinions.

 

Walt

[stunsworth]

Jeez, if you don't like the camera _and_ you don't expect Leica to find solutions to your problems, sell the bloody thing.

[carstenw]

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Walt, while I do not have as bad an experience as you do, I am still no fan of the shutter feel (I also own an M6, which has a wonderful feel), so I would be curious about your teflon treatment. What have you done to improve it?

[ttriolo]

Ok, that is just a ludicrous statement!

 

Yes, AWB is broken.

 

B-R-O-K-E-N! Malfunctioning; not working as designed. They haven't said they fixed it yet.

 

And I believe they are working on it, I'm sure. But not that I care, because AWB is most often just wrong anyway for colour work. No camera on earth can "guess" skin tones from an average scene. (Heck, no film can either; this is why colour labs existed).

 

Sigh. If you know what you're doing, the M8 has been ready for prime time since the recall was done, IMO. That was what? Around February?

 

There are no "major problems" that "plague this camera" if what you want to do is make excellent photographs.

 

If you don't know what you're doing, the M9 will not save you from yourself.

 

Geez. I'm getting cranky now! It means I should eat, get back to work, and stop checking in on this (except I loved Hank's stuff! I don't know how you'd call his work--or any number of other people's--the results of a malfunctioning camera!!! LOL!)

 

Ok, that's enough of this thread once and for all.

 

 

So, in a year they have not fixed the AWB problem but you are sure they are working on it. I wish I shared your confidence. I'd like to know what inside information you have that Leica is working on the problem. Do you have some personal communications with the folks in Solms? I haven't seen anything published, online or in any email that even hints that this is so. Yes, I agree with you that AWB is not generally the way to go. Personally, I shoot RAW but there occasions when I want to shoot JPEG or RAW + JPEG. The camera provides this functionality. All I'm saying is that it ought to deliver what it's designed to deliver. In this one area, the definitive conclusion any sane person can come to is that it does not perform as intended or as it should. The cheapest point & shoot digital I have ever used can do this infinitely better than the M8, and not a year (or more) after its rollout.

[Guest tummydoc]

Vinay, with respect, there's no marketing-ese in what I wrote, and though I'm hesitant to say this, I actually resent the implication that I'm somehow shilling for Leica.

 

Considering I made no such insinuation your overtly defencive response is most curious. But with respect, your list could've been written by Leica's marketing department because it distorts the reality that they introduced an uncommonly buggy camera and a year, one recall, thousands of warranty repairs, and several firmware releases later, it remains an uncommonly buggy camera. Your list makes it sound like you think Leica did something above and beyond the call of duty, when in reality everything they did was in the self-serving interest of damage control.

 

 

 

But the main point a lot of us are trying to make is that this is not a matter of "forgiveness" in any way.

 

Anyone who owns an M8 has exactly three alternative options, and that is borne out by the responses here: forgive the M8's issues, deny them, or sell the camera. A week ago I would've listed a fourth, the option to remain patient and optimistic that Leica will rectify the remaining issues. But the latest firmware release, which contains no improvement to AWB and from many reports doesn't even cure the scrolling issues that it purports to, goes to dash that option. Basically the latest firmware provides codes for the Summarit lenses Leica hopes to sell...that was clearly something they prioritised over solving the M8's continued glitches.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}On my experience with the shutter release, which you so off-handedly dismiss, I would like to explain.{snipped} In my experience--and I make this not as a rhetorical comment, but a description of my experience--the M8 has the roughest, most inconsistent shutter release I have ever used on a camera. It is a real-world, day-to-day problem for me. I base this on experience with five samples of the body. If the shutter were consistently rough, that might be acceptable. But the feel changes constantly and I cannot learn how much pressure is required to consistently release it. That interferes with the timing of my work and I find that unacceptable. I accept that that is not your experience, but it is mine whether you like it or not.

 

{snipped}

 

Leitz was once about excellence in producing a simple, sturdy, trouble-free camera that no one had to think about or talk about. It was never more or less than that. Perhaps those days are just over. In the meantime, how about letting others have their experience and opinions.

Walt

 

Walt--I'm only responding to this because you directly addressed it to me.

 

First, I truly apologise sincerely for seemingly dismissing your experience.

 

I wasn't trying to say there are no problems with the M8. I was trying to counter-balance some of the hand wringing here about how horrible the M8 is, and how Leica have done nothing in a year.

 

I now understand what your shutter problem is with the M8. It is different *in feel* than my other M bodies, but for me this is not an operational difficulty, since on my M8 anyway, I find the shutter is consistent when firing.

 

Now, in general, I'm all for people having their own experiences--as if I could somehow take them away! But generalizing into "this is a terrible camera and I expected more from Leica" doesn't help, doesn't explain, and doesn't mimic the reality of a lot of pros who use the camera.

 

As for Leitz standing for a kinder, simpler time and photographic experience, well. I have no argument against such nostalgia. But I'm not that much younger than you are, and I know at some level--all nostalgia aside--that you're right.

 

Now we are all colour correctors, developers, and our own labs, photography--digital photography--is much more complex than anything Leitz envisioned, I'm sure.

 

On the other hand, this doesn't have to be the case. If you shoot your M8 the same way you shot film, it can be just the same: find a great lab and pay their prices to hand over the SD card and get back prints. Let them worry about white balance and skin tones and profiles and magenta balance.

 

After all, that's what you did with film in the good old days, mostly (and by you, I mean "one"--you may have run your own colour lab for all I know).

 

This all makes the M8 not a point and shoot by any stretch. But it is capable of outstanding results, and to pretend it isn't, or that it's not ready for prime-time (whatever that really means) is just incorrect, factually.

 

Look, the M6 wasn't a point and shoot either, but you have to worry about more in the process now. When people got back crap from the Lab, did they blame the camera? Or themselves?

 

So again, Walt, I apologise for seemingly dismissing your shutter problem.

 

How about sharing your solution to the stickiness you find so awful, so maybe Leica could bless it or implement it?

[Jamie Roberts]

Considering I made no such insinuation your overtly defencive response is most curious {snipped}.

 

Vinay, calling my response "marketing-ese" insinuates that I'm marketing something, no?

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}Personally, I shoot RAW but there occasions when I want to shoot JPEG or RAW + JPEG. The camera provides this functionality. All I'm saying is that it ought to deliver what it's designed to deliver. In this one area, the definitive conclusion any sane person can come to is that it does not perform as intended or as it should. The cheapest point & shoot digital I have ever used can do this infinitely better than the M8, and not a year (or more) after its rollout.

 

1. Go to the menu

2. Set the white balance to the light you have. (just like choosing a film)

3. Shoot RAW + JPEG and you will have better than best AWB results anyway.

 

I do this all the time.

[fotografr]

I define malfunction as anything that fails to function as designed or intended. By that definition, not one M8 out there currently functions as designed unless you want to claim that Leica intended for its AWB to be this horrid. When you add all the other issues that plague many, if not most M8s, you have to conclude that this camera is still not ready for prime time, even now, a year after its introduction. The latest firmware update has done nothing to address the major problems that continue to haunt this camera. I fear that we will not see real improvement until the M9 rolls out.

 

This is complete nonsense. Not ready for prime time? Tell that to the art directors that have been telling me they have never seen better looking files. I'm basically making my living right now with this "not ready for prime time" camera.

 

What you perhaps should have said is that the M8 is not ready for people who don't quite know what they're doing with a digital camera. Anyone who relies on AWB for color accuracy with the M8 or any other camera gets what they deserve. That is the most unreliable way to shoot--period (with the M8 or any other digital camera). There is a reason those other little icons are shown below AWB. Try them out. In particular, try the Manual setting. When you figure out how to use the M8, it nails the color like nothing you've ever seen.

[Shootist]

I

The only thing I cannot forgive Leica for is selling anything to tummydoc. What a bad decision that was. This guy is the anchor of my ignore list, as I very rapidly confirm every time I see someone quoting him. I wish everyone would dump him on their own ignore lists, so that I wouldn't even have to look at the quoting.

 

Done, and I should of done this months ago.

[sdai]

I tried long time ago to add some people into my ignore list, but I quickly gave up ... because, one, the person can be quoted by other posters and that's treated as the other poster's message and can't be masked, two ... almost all folks who had made their way on to my list are persons of very high interest and I can't help hitting the view post button again and again. LOL

 

This is the beauty of Internet, folks ... let people disagree with you, if you think he is wrong, make a point and PROVE it. And keep in mind, not everyone post on the forum is so serious, most people surf the web JUST FOR FUN.

[hankg]

Jamie-

 

 

I have now found a way to lubricate part of the mechanism with a Teflon material and I have done one of the two bodies I am using, the one that was roughest. The operational difference is stunning. I am waiting to see if this produces other adverse effects on the camera (like contamination of electrical contacts, gumming, etc.), because it would be better not to use lubrication in this area. In the meantime, this treatment has created, if not the best shutter release I've ever used, a very good one.

 

Leitz was once about excellence in producing a simple, sturdy, trouble-free camera that no one had to think about or talk about. It was never more or less than that. Perhaps those days are just over. In the meantime, how about letting others have their experience and opinions.

 

Walt

 

Walt, I wonder if Mark Norton is following this thread and if he had any ideas on your lubrication method. He knows more about the inner workings of the M8 then anyone here. If you have hit on a way to improve the shutter action I'm sure many will be interested.

 

I have gotten used to the action of the shutter on my camera. I use a TA soft release and the way I hold the camera my trigger finger lies over the release the joint under my knuckle fires the release. This bit of info may be completely useless for you but I find it works infinitely better for me then the tip of my finger on the naked release. That way I can't seem to get a repeatable amount of smooth pressure. That scratchy notchy bit you have to overcome before the final release screws me up.

 

You have had a very different experience with the camera reliability wise then I have which is unfortunate. You also have different needs in your shooting style then I which I think are actually closer (your method that is) to what the M has been historically all about. I think that simple - trouble free and software - digital are rarely heard in the same sentence for a reason. Although while you lose something with digital you also gain something. The equation just hasn't reached the positive column for you -yet. Hopefully that will change.

 

I selfishly hope that you persevere (I don't think I could have in your place) as I really enjoy your input and respect your work. By the way on getting things up to spec. I rely on DAG. I sent my M8 to him as soon as I got it to verify the RF was spot on (it was) and any lens I acquire makes the same trip for focus calibration. I have had 2 lenses 6-bit coded at Leica NJ and I'm almost embarrassed to say turnaround was quick and follow up was super (sorry to those who have had different experience but I only trust Don at DAG with adjusting my kit new or used.

[larry]

Done, and I should of done this months ago.

 

Ed,

 

As we all should when legitimate discussion and debate turn into manipulative games for the amusement of the self-important. Look at this and draw your own conclusions: Nacissists, narcissistic personality disorder and the serial bully

 

Larry

[sdai]

I think there's a reason why Howard never posted again after he put up the thread ... for the sake of discussion, he asked I’m simply asking: What is it about this camera system that lets us refer to these as “quirks,” while they would be unacceptable flaws in another line?

The answer from most folks is quite clear ... because there's no substitute if you're a dedicated M shooter and wants a digital rangefinder. All other stuff are off topic.

[larry]

.In my experience--and I make this not as a rhetorical comment, but a description of my experience--the M8 has the roughest, most inconsistent shutter release I have ever used on a camera.

 

Walt,

 

I have to say, that for me, the rough release has been the most annoying "feature" of the M8. Oddly, it's become much smoother since it was new, and I've also learned to ignore it to a great extent. No, the camera's not perfect, but it takes damn good pictures!

 

Larry

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[farnz]

An excellent link in #97, Larry, and particularly apt.

 

Pete.