Contemplating Forgiveness--Why Do We Accept the M8?

[hankg]

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Some people seem to get upset when you tell them you have had no problems with the M8 and the camera is the best digital camera you have ever used ...You must be in denial ! A Leica apologist !

 

No, I can only speak from my own experience. If I got 3 bad cameras in a row I would have thrown in the towel at number 2 and went back to what I was using before. But I didn't -the camera has been great, reliable so far and the image quality and ergonomics are for me superior to any 35mm out there (when I say IQ I am not referring to resolution but the flexibility and quality of the files in post). The selection of lenses is unmatched and there is no camera out there I would rather use.

 

I have no idea how reliable the camera is on a statistical basis as no reliable statistics are available. I have read nightmare stories about the Hasselblad H, Canon 1D III and just about every camera out there from pissed off photographers who had real problems that have impacted their business in negative ways. I've been fortunate with the many Canon, Hassy's and Leica's and other cameras I've owned -no problems in 30 years. Of course when I buy a lens I expect it will need adjustment to meet my stringent requirements and I expect equipment to need regular service / maintainence. But I have to say that the M8 has been a sort of dream camera for me, combining most of the ergonomics and size of a film M (they didn't quite reach that bar) and the IQ of a medium format film camera. Although I would have done some things differently, all in all, a pretty amazing and unique little camera.

 

Forgiveness is not a concept that for me belongs in the same sentence with an equipment vendor. Either their product meets your needs or it doesn't, if it doesn't you find another vendor.

[AlanJW]

I don't have to forgive anything because other than a small battery blip (see my earlier post today) and very occasional venetian blinding on the display (cured by the new firmware) my M8 has been reliable and the results are to my liking. I screw up far more than the camera does.

 

Just to pu things in perspective, my 5D sometimes does not allow exposure comp to go back to normal, and sometimes without reason grossly overexposes. The cure is a reset of the custom functions to "default". Its actually more of a pain in the ___ than the venetian blinds on the M8 were, but I guess I "forgive" that too because for what I use the 5D for, I like the results there too.

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[SnapperJ]

If you read the interview with Stephen Lee carefully, the implication is that the M9 will be positioned below the M8, with the M8 remaining the flagship model, much like the new crop of Summarits....

 

I will have to go for the M10 then:D

[BerndReini]

I love my M8 and have had no problems with it after 125000 exposures so far, but I have to admit that I have been contemplating a second body just in case one fails. That is pretty sad. Further, I think we can all agree that some competition in the digital rangefinder market would not hurt the customer. Let's hope Epson comes back or Zeiss gets in, and make our Leicas better.

[fotografr]

 

III. QUESTION: We wouldn’t accept a Nikon or Canon if it behaved this way. Why do we accept the M8, and even expand our systems with additional lenses and bodies?

 

I’m simply asking: What is it about this camera system that lets us refer to these as “quirks,” while they would be unacceptable flaws in another line?

 

 

—HC

 

With Nikon and Canon, there are other choices we can move to. I used Nikons for 25 years and completely switched systems 2 years ago because I felt they weren't keeping up with digital advances. Their new D3 marks the first time, in my opinion, they have equated their system with Canon.

 

With the M8, there is no other comparable digital rangefinder that we can use with our M lenses. Aside from that, the image quality is astounding when the camera works properly.

[Jamie Roberts]

10s of thousands of exposures under pro conditions and harsh weather. One lock-up and one garbled file on earlier firmware. So no complaints at all.

 

Not an apologist either It's been as reliable as any digital camera I've ever used.

[jaapv]

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I did not respond earlier as I have been flamed as a leica apologist before:o , but it is as Leica M, my camera of choice since 1974, it is digital, which I embraced since 2002, the results are far better than I could have wished for and the two bodies I have have performed flawlessly for thousand of shots, with one battery problem in the very beginning. Minor glitches - well I guess that comes under the heading of forgiveness in the context of this thread,, but I would rather call it common sense to accept them.

[cnguyen]

Would you rather have a camera that works flawlessly and with a so-so image or M8. I have an M8 and it's been flawless for me. Even a Canon 1DMKIII had a recall recently. take your pick.

[Guest tummydoc]

If you read the interview with Stephen Lee carefully, the implication is that the M9 will be positioned below the M8

 

Perhaps the M9 will omit AWB, JPEG capture, ISO >1000, and the LCD. They're all to a greater or lesser extent useless on the M8 and after a year of trying Leica still can't get them sorted anyway

[Guest tummydoc]

Would you rather have a camera that works flawlessly and with a so-so image or M8.

 

An absurd hypothetical. The implication that there are any digitals that are flawless in the absolute is inane, as is the implication that there are no digitals whose IQ are better than "so-so" by comparison to the M8.

[Guest tummydoc]

I did not respond earlier as I have been flamed as a leica apologist before:o , but it is as Leica M, my camera of choice since 1974, it is digital, which I embraced since 2002, the results are far better than I could have wished for and the two bodies I have have performed flawlessly for thousand of shots, with one battery problem in the very beginning. Minor glitches - well I guess that comes under the heading of forgiveness in the context of this thread,, but I would rather call it common sense to accept them.

 

Nothing remotely apologist in that response. Others haven't been nearly so fortunate as you in terms of glitches and failures. I'd be curious if your enthusiasm might've been curbed had you to replace your M8 bodies several times, send them and your lenses away for months on end for sorting only to receive them finally without having been effectively sorted, and lost countless un-repeatable photo-ops as a result of the camera misbehaving, etc.

[jaapv]

Perhaps the M9 will omit AWB, JPEG capture, ISO >1000, and the LCD. They're all to a greater or lesser extent useless on the M8 and after a year of trying Leica still can't get them sorted anyway

 

 

Maybe Leica made a mistake with adopting the "Japanese" approach to WB. It would have been more consistent with their philosophy to indeed omit AWB and offer choices in WB that run parallel with film characteristics. Say 4 daylight settings inspired on Kodachrome, Velvia, Sensia and RSX-II, a couple of tungsten settings and a similar B&W scala, maybe with some specialist settings like fluorescent, IR, etc. Lack of courage?

[sdai]

Perhaps the M9 will omit AWB, JPEG capture, ISO >1000, and the LCD.

 

Make the DNG 4 -bit so the camera can writer a lot faster and save more space on SD. LOL

[sdai]

Say 4 daylight settings inspired on Kodachrome, Velvia, Sensia and RSX-II, a couple of tungsten settings and a similar B&W scala, maybe with some specialist settings like fluorescent, IR, etc. Lack of courage?

 

Sounds like Canon's Picture Style to me ... that's more Japanese approach.

[tbarker13]

If I had as many problems as the OP, I wouldn't own the camera.

 

But I've shot more than 10,000 frames in the past year. I've had one or two lockups that were cleared in less time than it would have taken to change a roll of film on my old M6.

I'm sure there's been an occasional frame lost to some programming glitch. I don't see the big deal though. I lost at least the same percentage of frames in my film days to processing glitches and film misfeeds.

[Guest tummydoc]

I love my M8 and have had no problems with it after 125000 exposures so far

 

Assuming you accepted your M8 when it first became available, that would average to more than 300 shots/day (roughly the equivalent of 9 36-exp films), 7 days per week. Assuming you post-processed all of them (with at the very least an obligatory 'tweak' for WB ), when do you sleep?

[sdai]

Would you rather have a camera that works flawlessly and with a so-so image or M8. I have an M8 and it's been flawless for me. Even a Canon 1DMKIII had a recall recently. take your pick.

 

To be fair, the sub mirror in 1D3 can be replaced so the problem will disappear altogether ... can we expect the M8 to shoot without IR cut filters and its added benefits?

[hankg]

Nothing remotely apologist in that response. Others haven't been nearly so fortunate as you in terms of glitches and failures. I'd be curious if your enthusiasm might've been curbed had you to replace your M8 bodies several times, send them and your lenses away for months on end for sorting only to receive them finally without having been effectively sorted, and lost countless un-repeatable photo-ops as a result of the camera misbehaving, etc.

 

If that had happened to me I wouldn't be here commenting. I would have dumped the system and moved on.

[sdai]

when do you sleep?

 

At one time, I sent my 1D2 in CPS for service and my pal found the shutter actuation topped 12000 clicks in about 6 months and asked what I have done to it. Well ... I could only blame my kids, they really like the sound of it when shooting bursts at 8 fps.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest tummydoc]

Maybe Leica made a mistake with adopting the "Japanese" approach to WB. It would have been more consistent with their philosophy to indeed omit AWB and offer choices in WB that run parallel with film characteristics. Say 4 daylight settings inspired on Kodachrome, Velvia, Sensia and RSX-II, a couple of tungsten settings and a similar B&W scala, maybe with some specialist settings like fluorescent, IR, etc. Lack of courage?

 

No, I think perhaps they figured we're too feeble-minded to remember to change the WB settings ourselves...just as they believe we're too feeble-minded to change lens-data settings if they were to give us that option in a menu