Summilux M 35 f 1.4 Sharpness problem with M11 at 60 MB

[gfurman]

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I find images images lacking sharpness with this lens and stopping down beyond f5.6 at 60 MB resolution.  Is it because of diffraction at this high resolution?

Has anybody experienced this problem?

[lct]

No but what shutter speed were you using?

[dpitt]

If you are talking about the pre-ASPH version, I had the same experience. Even on the M9 it was simply too soft for me wide open. I did not see the point of keeping a fast lens that needed to be stopped down several stops to be sharp enough to please me. My Summilux 50mm pre-ASPH was much better wide open. So I sold it and I even bought a second sample thinking I might have been unlucky... Same story so I sold it again. Now I am using the Summicron 35  which is better for me at any stop below F8.

Sorry, to bust the hype for some people. This lens is very pleasing and artistic wide open, but a bit too much for me.

Maybe one day I will buy the Summilux 35 ASPH, which is a completely different lens and it should be very good even wide open.

PS: And both lenses got a full CLA by Will van Manen before I used them. So it was not the condition of the glass that affected this decision.

Edited February 8, 2023 by dpitt

[Huss]

Check for focus, and camera shake.

If the image is not absolutely perfectly focused, it will not look sharp at 60mp - focus in Live View mode to confirm.

If there is any camera shake, the image will not look sharp at 60mp.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Huss

[Overgaard]

1 hour ago, gfurman said:

I find images images lacking sharpness with this lens and stopping down beyond f5.6 at 60 MB resolution.  Is it because of diffraction at this high resolution?

Has anybody experienced this problem?

Which version 35mm Summilux is it?

[jakontil]

I presume it is the pre-asph summilux 35? How sharp are you expecting? A sample image might help

[shirubadanieru]

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Isn’t his question about stopping down beyond f5.6? I.e. f8 / f11 / f16? 

At those apertures the pre-asph lux is tack sharp, as much as any ASPH…and diffraction is usually visible only at f11 and beyond. Even at f11 is ok, I actually always shoot at f11 with zone focusing and see no negative impact in my pictures.

[gfurman]

I have the APO FLE I.  Hand held at 1/250 sec

[lct]

11 minutes ago, gfurman said:

I have the APO FLE I.  Hand held at 1/250 sec

My FLE1 is not apo AFAIK but it is tack sharp at f/8 and f/11 and 1/250s is fast enough a shutter speed to avoid camera shake if you have steady hands. It could be that your lens needs a CLA then.

Edited February 8, 2023 by lct

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, gfurman said:

I find images images lacking sharpness with this lens and stopping down beyond f5.6 at 60 MB resolution.  Is it because of diffraction at this high resolution?

Has anybody experienced this problem?

Diffraction should start after f11.

if you a modern lens, there is no APO summilux, but FLE v1 and V2. wide open at 1.4 it has some glow and fringing , at 2,8-4 is it as sharp as the APO 35mm.

Very food lens.

I could be 2 options that gives disappointing results. Rangefinder calibration of the camera, con be tested on you LCD, or calibration of the lens, what most of the time is minimal( can't focus to infinity)

[tjxism]

Can the OP post a few sample images?

[Overgaard]

The Leica 35mm Summilux FLE (2010-version) should be tack sharp in the focus area. I wonder if you are zooming in too much on the 60MP and not looking at the actual size.

35mm FLE on Leica M10-R (focused on the STOP sign):

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Stop sign detail:

STOP sign 100% crop (as if you are looking at a detail of a 60x40cm print)

35mm FLE on Leica M9:

Edited February 8, 2023 by Overgaard

[jaapv]

14 hours ago, gfurman said:

I find images images lacking sharpness with this lens and stopping down beyond f5.6 at 60 MB resolution.  Is it because of diffraction at this high resolution?

Has anybody experienced this problem?

Some lenses do exhibit diffraction at 5.6 upwards.  It is quite possible that you can see this at the “insane” magnification of the M11 at 100%. 

[lct]

54 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Some lenses do exhibit diffraction at 5.6 upwards.  It is quite possible that you can see this at the “insane” magnification of the M11 at 100%. 

Never seen this below f/16 on the FLE but i may be wrong.

[jaapv]

You are  

[lct]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

You are  

Show me this please 😇

[jaapv]

https://www.edmundoptics.com/knowledge-center/application-notes/imaging/limitations-on-resolution-and-contrast-the-airy-disk/

 

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

 

Most sources assume a 1.4 35 mm to have a diffraction limit around f8.0.  However the Airy Disk and pixel size resolution do influence diffraction  effect sonic is quite understandable that the OP is seeing diffraction at 5.6. 

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Some lenses do exhibit diffraction at 5.6 upwards.  It is quite possible that you can see this at the “insane” magnification of the M11 at 100%. 

 

1 hour ago, lct said:

Never seen this below f/16 on the FLE but i may be wrong.

 

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

You are  

 

1 hour ago, lct said:

Show me this please 😇

I think we're discussing two different things – when diffraction starts (~f/5.6) versus when diffraction becomes objectionable (~f/16).

"Performance for this lens at infinity peaks at f/4." – Also means: "Diffraction for this lens begins at f/5.6." But in reality, at 60mp, f/8 is a good balance of sharpness and amount of the scene in focus. IMO, the biggest increase in diffraction on the M11 and even on my SL2-S can be seen when switching from f/11 to f/16.

[hdmesa]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

...is quite understandable that the OP is seeing diffraction at 5.6. 

I think it's more likely the OP is experiencing softness at f/5.6 because of mis-focus or focus shift – or because they're yet another new member trolling us.

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[pgk]

10 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I think we're discussing two different things – when diffraction starts (~f/5.6) versus when diffraction becomes objectionable (~f/16).

"Performance for this lens at infinity peaks at f/4." – Also means: "Diffraction for this lens begins at f/5.6." But in reality, at 60mp, f/8 is a good balance of sharpness and amount of the scene in focus. IMO, the biggest increase in diffraction on the M11 and even on my SL2-S can be seen when switching from f/11 to f/16.

On my Canon 5DII the image started to soften at f/11~16. I would expect a 60MPixel camera to show (marginal) softening a little wider open, perhaps f/8~11, but not to 'lack sharpness' as was stated. I had this conversation years ago with another underwater photographer who was having trouble getting reall sharp images at an indicated f/32 on a cropped sensor dSLR of higher MPixel than the 5DII. In comparison my 5DII was producing visibly crisper images when set betwenn f/11 and 16. By direct comparison this was obvious. Looking at images as standalone, it was only by being critical that the softening due to small aperture was apparent. If a lens 'lacks sharpness' at f/5.6 then, even with a 60MPixel sensor, there is almost certainly another reason rather than diffraction.