M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[hdmesa]

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On 6/11/2023 at 4:20 AM, lct said:

Miscommunication, i don't know but Leica's lack of communication is obvious here. Reminds me of the demise of the digital CL. I can understand that Leica's communication is not entrusted to dealers. I can also believe that freeze issues have been mostly fixed by firmware update 1.6.1, given that my M11 works flawlessly since then, but some problems remain according to a serious internet forum (oxymoron?) like the LUF, and Leica should disclose, at the very least, if these problems exist, how important they are, be they quantitatively minor, and if Leica is actually working to find a solution. The current mutism at Leica gives the impression that they don't know where they stand and can only encourage the paranoid trend of some posts. Nothing personal  Just to put things in perspective, the last camera freeze bug has been fixed in April 2016 on the M240 i.e. almost 4 years after its launch.

 

2 hours ago, lct said:

Zero statements from Leica and nobody knows for certain if it is a software problem or not. As much as i like my freeze-free M11, i would not order a second body, if i needed it, as long as Leica does not communicate about the issue. 

I’ve covered this in this thread, but it’s probably gotten lost in the shuffle. According to my conversations via email with Leica about the issue, they are WELL AWARE of continued freezes after the most recent firmware update, and they are prioritizing getting them fixed. However, I also stated that a major holdup is finding the exact conditions that cause the freezes. I was essentially told they could easily fix any repeatable freeze, but the freezing on startup that I and others here continue to experience is not consistently reproducible. 

I still maintain that the freeze on startup is likely a hardware defect, which would account for the random nature of the problem and the fact that NO SUGGESTED FIXES THUS FAR WORK. Speculation by me and others is that the startup freeze is a hardware problem with the 6-bit code reader. But who knows, really. We’re not Leica technicians. 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by hdmesa

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[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

I was essentially told they could easily fix any repeatable freeze, but the freezing on startup that I and others here continue to experience is not consistently reproducible.

Which has been true since the dawn of the computer age.  Real time multi-tasking in the face of random events with multi-level locking is fairly serious business and as time goes by, fewer and fewer engineers are truly schooled in the finer points of OS development.  What will be more interesting is how the Q3 behaves. No doubt much of the code is shared across all the Maestro equipped offerings. Hopefully that camera will fare a little better. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Speculation by me and others is that the startup freeze is a hardware problem with the 6-bit code reader.

My code reader seems to work perfectly so far. How could it be a hardware issue then? Fact is some of us believe in speculations or hypotheses here but in all honesty, nobody knows for certain what cause(s) the freezes come from. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by lct

[Qlan]

12 minutes ago, lct said:

My code reader seems to work perfectly so far. How could it be a hardware issue then?

Hardware issue means that some (or most) work fine but some have defaults, maybe the tolerance is a little bit off during production. Yours working well doesn't mean there isn't any potential hardware issue.

12 minutes ago, lct said:

Fact is some of us believe in speculations or hypotheses here but in all honesty, nobody knows for certain what cause(s) the freezes come from. 

Do you even know what a speculation or hypothesis mean? We don't "believe" in them, it's just our best guess based on our tests and observations. Of course, if new evidence came to light, we might have to abandon that hypothesis. That's how the scientific method works.

[scott kirkpatrick]

My reading of the small amount of entrails that have been exposed in these very complex cameras is that the M11/Maestro3 firmware has come from a team very close to Leica while the SL2/Maestro3 seems to be still very Panasonic-influenced.  Does anyone know if the Q3/Maestro4 combo is largely MadeInGermany or has strong Panasonic origins that will keep its evolution more separate? (Q's are nice, but with an M11, I don't need one.)

Leica has come a long way from the M8 days when RealLeicaEngineers did optics and mechanical engineering, fancy external appearances came from artsy design shops in Munich, and software was contracted out.  I hope to see the day when they can claim a common code base and a unified user interface in some future decade.

 

[lct]

10 hours ago, Qlan said:

Do you even know what a speculation or hypothesis mean? [...]

Arguments appealing to no evidence? Little interest to me but it must be professional deformation (lawyer).

[SJH]

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22 hours ago, lct said:

Zero statements from Leica and nobody knows for certain if it is a software problem or not. As much as i like my freeze-free M11, i would not order a second body, if i needed it, as long as Leica does not communicate about the issue. 

At this stage I don't think they're going to make any statements on the basis that for the moment it's difficult to see what they'd have to talk about given that only a tiny number of people it would appear are in category 3 that I referred to above i.e. multiple freezes and on their 2nd or 3rd camera. For those people of course it's extremely frustrating but the majority are in groups 1 & 2 i.e. either no freezes or a few since purchase and therefore nothing to see really, especially since 1.6.

Contrast that to the situation with the new M6 whereby Leica quickly acknowledge there was an issue with the pressure plates scratching film in a batch of camera's early on. I had such a camera and Leica resolved the matter very quickly and to my satisfaction through their UK team.

At the moment it seems it's difficult for Leica to be able to replicate the issue that a tiny number of M11 users appear to be having as it really doesn't make sense that with multiple batches and different purchase dates, some users have had to swap their camera's a number of times. Rather than faulty hardware it seems like this is a software/firmware issue with very specific use cases, lenses, cards etc etc and combinations thereof. 

[nineteenfocus]

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Edited June 13, 2023 by nineteenfocus

[lct]

28 minutes ago, SJH said:

At this stage I don't think they're going to make any statements on the basis that for the moment it's difficult to see what they'd have to talk about given that only a tiny number of people it would appear are in category 3 that I referred to above i.e. multiple freezes and on their 2nd or 3rd camera. For those people of course it's extremely frustrating but the majority are in groups 1 & 2 i.e. either no freezes or a few since purchase and therefore nothing to see really, especially since 1.6.

This tiny number theory does not sound incredible but, for lack of evidence, it looks like another speculation or hypothesis with no disrespect. I pertain to your group 2 but i would not order a second body as long as Leica does not communicate, as suggested.

Edited June 13, 2023 by lct

[SJH]

4 hours ago, lct said:

This tiny number theory does not sound incredible but, for lack of evidence, it looks like another speculation or hypothesis with no disrespect. I pertain to your group 2 but i would not order a second body as long as Leica does not communicate, as suggested.

Of course I get your point but as I mentioned it is speculation based upon anecdotal evidence. however, I would suggest that if you’re in group 2 then that’s just like any other camera launched in recent times and there is a reasonable probability that applies to group 3: it’s just we’re a very fussy lot as Leica owners  

It would be interesting to go back over this entire thread and determine how many people are actually in group 3 v M11 units sold - 10, 20, 50, 100? Even the higher figure wouldn’t represent a material percentage of M11’s sold globally most likely. This differs considerably to when Leica knew (and disclosed) that an entire batch of 2022 M6’s had faulty pressure plates for example. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by SJH

[DAERASO]

On 6/11/2023 at 2:54 AM, maidenfan84 said:

I was prepared to put down the money for a new M11. And this is exactly why I didn’t. It’s safer to buy a used older Leica than a new Leica. That’s really sad to say, but it seems to be truer and truer as the days pass. A magic fix for an SD card, or pulling the battery to ‘solve’ a freeze…these are things that shouldn’t even be happening on a $9000 USD camera, let alone a $900 USD camera (or any new camera, for that matter). Sure, Leica is legendary. But that doesn’t mean to me they get continuous free passes to keep selling high end camera equipment while ignoring issues. Maybe if they release an M12 where they actually address the issues, I’ll consider buying a new Leica. But at this time, not even a chance. Another reason that pushed me to not buy a new one is the response I get when I ask Leica Store staff and other influencers about the issues. They act like there’s zero issues at all. For example, i watched an M11 broadcast from a well known Leica store. I asked a direct question during the live chat about these freezing issues, etc and guess what…they completely took ALL questions about the camera…but mine. I was the only question they tiptoed around and ignored. I asked a second time…same thing happened again. Says a lot to me when these ‘reputable’ shops and staff won’t even acknowledge these widespread issues just so they can sell a flawed product to those who don’t know otherwise. 

I can put my money on that broadcast being Leica Miami... I sadly have nothing nice to say about them.

[lct]

24 minutes ago, SJH said:

It would be interesting to go back over this entire thread and determine how many people are actually in group 3 v M11 units sold - 10, 20, 50, 100? Even the higher figure wouldn’t represent a material percentage of M11’s sold globally most likely. This differs considerably to when Leica knew (and disclosed) that an entire batch of 2022 M6’s had faulty pressure plates for example.

I have no idea. It is up to Leica to disclose what they know, not to us to speculate on matters we have no clue about. 

[DAERASO]

So I'm on my second M11, first one dated on the box Nov 2022, froze once while charging and trying to turn it on quickly, pulled the battery and then never again. Sold it eventually for personal reasons and just got a new M11 last week dated April 2023. Put about 100 frames and nothing, today I went for a photo walk and after taking a photo, I tried reviewing it and the photo was completely black, all the info and icons were there as they should but photo was pitch black. I thought I bumped the aperture ring or something, but realized camera became unresponsive, pulled the battery out, turned it on, hit play again and the photo showed as it should along all the other info on the screen.

Freaked me out a bit but kept going, I happen to stumble upon the courthouse that Trump was supposed to show up at, bunch of people so I went to town with it, shot about 200 frames (I treat my digital cameras like film, I am not trigger happy so that's quite a high amount for my style of shooting) camera got pretty warm as the sun was blazing, but did not have any issues, I turned it off a few times in between to rest and so on but kept up just fine.

Always used 32gb (gold) Lexar cards with both M11, as well as CV glass.

Here is the shots from todays shenanigans.

https://www.daeraso.com/site/trump-arrest/trump-arrest

[dugby]

On 6/13/2023 at 6:42 AM, scott kirkpatrick said:

My reading of the small amount of entrails that have been exposed in these very complex cameras is that the M11/Maestro3 firmware has come from a team very close to Leica while the SL2/Maestro3 seems to be still very Panasonic-influenced.  Does anyone know if the Q3/Maestro4 combo is largely MadeInGermany or has strong Panasonic origins that will keep its evolution more separate? (Q's are nice, but with an M11, I don't need one.)

Leica has come a long way from the M8 days when RealLeicaEngineers did optics and mechanical engineering, fancy external appearances came from artsy design shops in Munich, and software was contracted out.  I hope to see the day when they can claim a common code base and a unified user interface in some future decade.

 

Leica's Maestro comes from SOCIONEXT, a collaboration of Leica and Fujitsu Semiconductor.

 

https://leica-camera.com/en-AU/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/Press-Releases-2016/Press-Release-Leica-Camera-AG-and-Socionext-Europe-continue-their-long-standing-collaboration-with-a-focus-on-next-generation-System-on-Chip-SoC-solutions

 

https://www.eu.socionext.com/nextnews/leica-camera-ag-and-socionext-europe-continue-their-long-standing-collaboration.html

 

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, dugby said:

Leica's Maestro comes from SOCIONEXT, a collaboration of Leica and Fujitsu Semiconductor.

 

https://leica-camera.com/en-AU/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/Press-Releases-2016/Press-Release-Leica-Camera-AG-and-Socionext-Europe-continue-their-long-standing-collaboration-with-a-focus-on-next-generation-System-on-Chip-SoC-solutions

 

https://www.eu.socionext.com/nextnews/leica-camera-ag-and-socionext-europe-continue-their-long-standing-collaboration.html

 

I read that differently, that Socionext is a successor to Fujitsu Semiconductor. It looks like it is jointly owned by Fujitsu, Panasonic and a bank.

Leica collaborated with Socionext to develop the Maestro II. I believe Leica is the only brand using that name for its processors, but who knows where else it is used under a different name. As that press release dates from 2016, we could guess that Socionext also produced the Maestro III for Leica. It remains an open question whether the Maestro IV is from the same source - though I have no reason to think otherwise.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[DadDadDaddyo]

Just for fun, I ran some quick searches on Google, and I invite folks to do the same. 

Do this especially if you feel that any issues related to freezing up are more prevalent, or even unique, to Leica cameras. 

Try these as searches (no need to include the quotation marks):

"Canon camera freezes"

"Nikon camera freezes"

"Olympus camera freezes"

"Fujifilm camera freezes"

"Hasselblad camera freezes"

Do this, and you may detect a pattern.....

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Just for fun, I ran some quick searches on Google, and I invite folks to do the same. 

Do this especially if you feel that any issues related to freezing up are more prevalent, or even unique, to Leica cameras. 

Try these as searches (no need to include the quotation marks):

"Canon camera freezes"

"Nikon camera freezes"

"Olympus camera freezes"

"Fujifilm camera freezes"

"Hasselblad camera freezes"

Do this, and you may detect a pattern.....

Never had a digital Nikon freeze. Never had a freeze with the X100F, X100V, GFX 50S/50R/100S. The only camera besides Leica I've had freeze was the early copies of the Canon R5 – and guess, what? Those were hardware failures that required a mainboard replacement. So let's not make assumptions based on patterns that only exist in our own heads.

[SJH]

Well I can understand the frustration some M11 owners have if their camera (or second) freezes on a regular basis, however, all the wailing about “Leica must come clean’ or ‘they must make a statement’ isn’t likely to happen at the moment. We’ll never know the likely numbers but like just about every other brand they have a tiny minority with multiple freezes on a regular basis. They’ve said that some owners do experience freezes and they’ve outlined that in the v1.6 release notes.

When something like the M6 pressure plate issue happens (like other manufactures) they acknowledge the issue and put forward a resolution. From this thread it appears the actual number of people with multiple freezes is tiny in reality and most owners are either freeze free or had just a couple of freezes since they bought the camera. Leica will know this to and have a reasonable idea as to how many camera’s it relates.

The guy on YouTube who claims to be on his 3 or 4th (?) camera seems really weird to me, bought at different times/ batches etc and still the issue occurs for him when most buyers don’t experience any freezes/or just a few - it has to be how he uses the camera. An M11 is now a sophisticated computer/software platform, like all tech it will freeze now and then just like everyone other item of tech, an M11 is not an M3 or M6.

People might say ‘well I’ve never had a freeze with my Fuji XT4 but it happens with my M11’, clearly that statement for them is true but  again many owners of the XT line for example do have freezes (I had an XT3 at launch and it froze on 2 or 3 occasions on firmware v1).

If an entire batch of M11’s made say between January and March had faulty hardware etc then Leica would have to make a statement, the fact that they are silent on the matter indicates they feel they’re in the same camp at the moment as every other manufacture of camera’s/tech so ‘nothing to see’.

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[lct]

1 hour ago, SJH said:

[...] like just about every other brand they have a tiny minority with multiple freezes on a regular basis. [...] the fact that they are silent on the matter indicates they feel they’re in the same camp at the moment as every other manufacture of camera’s/tech so ‘nothing to see’.

Leica's working on a firmware update, as i understand it, which would contradict both faulty hardware and "nothing to see" theories IMHO.

[SJH]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Leica's working on a firmware update, as i understand it, which would contradict both faulty hardware and "nothing to see" theories IMHO.

That’s my understand to but in my view this is further bug fixing and a step on from 1.6. We’ll probably have to agree to disagree on this  but this to me is the same as everyone else in the market. Some people believe that this a on a par with the M9 sensor issue or most recently say the M6 pressure plate scratching film, personally I think Leica are now homing in on providing 1.7 to try and deal with the tiny tiny minority still experiencing multi freezes.

Really this is what most tech companies do, so I don’t believe that Leica are being evasive it’s just normal BAU with a new camera just like the other makes. As such my ‘nothing in to see’ comment means just that - Leica don’t think there is a point in making a statement about normal BAU firmware development as it’s not actual affecting many camera’s in a material way. If every second camera for example was being returned to Leica they’d have to make statement rather obviously..

Don’t get me wrong I was pretty hacked off about my new M6 on release scratching film but to Leica’s credit they acknowledged this snd dealt with it instantly. Equally I had a Q2 that showed the incorrect f stop in the viewfinder compared to the lens setting, they acknowledge that fault and replaced it instantly.

We’ll again probably see in the 1.7 release notes the comment from Leica that ‘further fixes for some camera’s experiencing freezes’. Many other camera companies are less up front about that and just state ‘further bug fixes’.