M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[kinetic]

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I don't know how they developed the software, but being an engineer (software) myself, I don't believe this has to do with any specific issue, but more of a build up of something like a memory leak or that the processing power isn't consistent/enough for certain edge cases. These things are probably incredibly hard to reproduce when troubleshooting, so it's near impossible to track down exactly what might cause it. What these firmware releases are probably doing is finding big inefficiencies that are proving to reduce memory/processing use in the hopes that it solves the overall problem. But if you do enough, it could come back.

That's just a theory.

If you want to hear my story:
1. Bought the M11 used
2. Previous owner never had a freeze
3. I tried shooting continuous high, and it froze on me
4. I never really shoot continuous, so it hadn't bothered me since
5. I got a new Lexar SDHC II card last night, got the new firmware, shot on continuous high, no freeze

I'm not even sure my "Freeze" was really the same freeze everyone else is seeing. I think it corrected itself after a bit. I just thought initially that continuous high was weird by design. But now I know.

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[satijntje]

Am 15.3.2023 um 14:48 schrieb satijntje:

Just received a second hand M11 in silverchrom.
The camera was bought by the original owner in January 2022.
Firmware that is loaded is 1.6.1
I had hoped that the problem with the freezes would have been sold.
BUT, …….
no way, after 10 shows I had my first freeze already.
No fancy things e.g. no external Visoflex etc….
The camera was bought from a private person, so returning it, is not an issue.
I have done a general reset of the camera, reformatted the SD card in the camera.
During the last 20 shots no freeze. Huuuray 
The saga continues 😞

 

Today a did a few hundert testshots with a 95MB/s Extreme Pro Sandisk 64SD Card.
Both single shot and high-Speed multiple shots
Not a single freeze 

[Warton]

2 hours ago, satijntje said:

Today a did a few hundert testshots with a 95MB/s Extreme Pro Sandisk 64SD Card.
Both single shot and high-Speed multiple shots
Not a single freeze 

Freeze usually happens when you fidgeting with the buttons

[lct]

Never got the least freeze issue with 95mb/s Extreme Pro Sandisk cards. Same with UHS1 (170mb/s) Extreme Pro Sandisk cards. UHS2 (300mb/s) Extreme Pro Sandisk cards caused freezes before FW 1.6.1 but no more since then. Remain Sandisk cards i did not try yet, the Extreme Pro CFExpress (1500mb/s). Not sure if they are compatible with the M11 though.  

[SJH]

Hi All

As a Tech CEO work wise I thought I’d just summarise some key points that have appeared on social (and from experience) etc to help end any freezing issues assuming you’re using the latest firmware (mine has been fine though):

1. Whilst many people format their SD cards most appear not to have done the internal memory. Both should really be done at the same time, I’ve mentioned this a couple of times before. 
2. After upgrading the firmware complete a factory reset having saved your profiles. 
3. Use the camera for aa day or two with no profiles added back. If there’s no freezing add back one setting manually that you use the most.
4. If freezing ends then add back all your profiles from your SD card. 
5. If step 4 causes the camera to start freezing again, complete step 2 but add your profiles back in manually. 
6. Hopefully this will solve your issues and is something I’ve done with each firmware upgrade - I’ve had no freezes since I bought the M11 on the day it came out. To me it’s been more reliable that either my M10M or M10R.  

[Warton]

I formatted SD card and internal memory.

I did the factory reset to the camera.

I never use profiles.

No freeze since 1.6.1, been 2 weeks and more than 2000 shots.

finger crossed.

[Qlan]

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All those advice never worked (for me). Still got freezes on both my M11 (waiting for the third one to arrive).

We just need to accept that there are too many causes of freezes and none of those checklists is going to solve the issue definitely.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Qlan

[malko]

Same here - have done 2.5k frames since 1.6.1 came out - zero issues. Before mine froze every 130 or so frames.

There are still (very) few cameras with problems, but I'm willing to bet these have different hardware issues. As a matter of fact, I've literally only read of 3 cases, one of them being Qlan, and two others here in the forum. 

[SJH]

6 hours ago, Qlan said:

All those advice never worked (for me). Still got freezes on both my M11 (waiting for the third one to arrive).

We just need to accept that there are too many causes of freezes and none of those checklists is going to solve the issue definitely.

Thanks Qlan and I feel your pain but this is just a bit weird from a tech perspective. What I mean by this is that if it’s hardware (unlikely) you received two M11’s that were most likely made in different batches, this sort of eliminates a batch of bad components which Leica frankly could easily identify (see a small number of new M6 pressure plates late last year). Then if we move to firmware if you genuinely (and I’m not disputing this) format both internal memory & the SD card, update to the latest firmware and then only (and I say ONLY) use both camera’s in their default state after a factory reset for a while, it eliminates any weird profile combinations etc. 

If you can, I think it would help Leica if you could log any errors on your third camera and also let them know at what stage they happen under my numbered stages above.

As far as I can tell the actual number of people who suffer multiple failures on 2+camera’s is tiny in reality, so this must mean those people have very specific individual use cases around profiles and lens combinations etc that it’s proving difficult for Leica’s engineers to have any chance of replicating.

Frankly this sort of thing happens for all tech companies (like Apple for example) who generally have a great customer satisfaction but given the high acquisition price and social media in 2023, people expect 100% perfection from their Leica. Camera’s are now tech (even Leica’s)and that’s never going to happen. Just take say Ferrari’s as a good example of tech on wheels and comments in forums of ‘my hell with my 400k 488’ etc.

That’s not to make excuses but if you’ve had two rotten M11’s statistically in the tech world you are a) very unusual b) you should really get Leica to examine them both and how you use them because you’ll be a tiny minority. However, this is not to take away any of your personal pain in the whole experience  !!!!

Part of the problem too is that you’ll see multiple posts in ‘M11 freezing issues’ about the same actual freezes which also just accentuates the perceived problem. Equally on social media (not this forum with some very genuine pain) I’ve also noticed the classic ‘fake’ accounts claiming to have multiple issue with my Leica xxxx which is just malicious.

It would also help if contributors to the many pages of posts in the ‘M11 freezing topic’ could equally state that they did a factory reset, formatted the internal memory & SD card, only used the camera in it’s factory default state after a firmware update for a while … and then didn’t have any issues; of course assuming this is really the case.

 

[leif posegger]

Hi ... I had the same problem, but I learned a few tricks that helped me end this ( freezing problem )

1 - the latest firmware. It helped a little... not 100%

2 - use the internal memory ( always ).. then transfer the pictures to an SD card when the internal is full .. then continue using the internal 

3 - when transferring to the phone .. disconnect the connection ( leica app ) when you are done with the transferring. If you just turn off the camera, it could freeze again 

These steps helped me a lot 

[Qlan]

I am also a software engineer, so I think I now have a good understanding of why freezes are still happening to me on 2 different bodies after many tests. I think it is a firmware issue.

My hypothesis is that the lens detection module (6-bit code reader) has bugs. First, it is never off, it is always trying to read the code (at what frequency I don't know). I am using third party lenses, so no 6-bit code. Also I change lenses very frequently when I'm out shooting (20+ times in a day). Most of my freezes happen at startup, after changing the lens. I also notice that sometimes the quick menu will show "No lens" or "Uncoded" for the lens selection for a split second before going back to the "manual M" setting I chose.

I decided to finally manually code my lenses and see if that makes a difference. My painting is not great, so I guess the code reader sometimes has trouble reading the code and bugs out.

After I coded my lenses, I got a new bug: the mechanical shutter doesn't respect the shutter speed I chose and stops at 1s (or sometimes 1.5s, 2s) (only for shutter speed >1s). See this thread.

And I figured out what is causing this. It seems like my manual coding of the lens is fading, so I put another layer of paint. And no more shutter issues! If I try to partially erase the paint or just let it be for a few days, the shutter bugs out again, infrequently at first, but consistently each time after a while. So it seems like the code reader attempts to read the code one second after pressing the shutter? (How often does it try to read the code when the camera is idle?) And when it can't find a code during a shot, it will simply stop the shot.

Maybe the shutter issue is not related to the freeze issue, but that's 2 bugs I experienced that are related to the code reader.

My situation may be uncommon: non-coded lenses, using manual M lens selection (because I want to use 1/(xf) min shutter speed and also get the lens info in the exif) and changing lenses frequently.

I did send videos and descriptions of the bugs to Leica.

I ended up buying a 50 Summilux as well as the 35mm Summilux steel rim re-issue so if my hypothesis is correct, I won't experience freezes anymore. But I still have a Voigtlander 28mm Ultron II which I'll use from time to time, so I'll keep you updated...

Edited March 22, 2023 by Qlan

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, Qlan said:

I am also a software engineer, so I think I now have a good understanding of why freezes are still happening to me on 2 different bodies after many tests. I think it is a firmware issue.

My hypothesis is that the lens detection module (6-bit code reader) has bugs. First, it is never off, it is always trying to read the code (at what frequency I don't know). I am using third party lenses, so no 6-bit code. Also I change lenses very frequently when I'm out shooting (20+ times in a day). Most of my freezes happen at startup, after changing the lens. I also notice that sometimes the quick menu will show "No lens" or "Uncoded" for the lens selection for a split second before going back to the "manual M" setting I chose.

I decided to finally manually code my lenses and see if that makes a difference. My painting is not great, so I guess the code reader sometimes has trouble reading the code and bugs out.

After I coded my lenses, I got a new bug: the mechanical shutter doesn't respect the shutter speed I chose and stops at 1s (or sometimes 1.5s, 2s) (only for shutter speed >1s). See this thread.

And I figured out what is causing this. It seems like my manual coding of the lens is fading, so I put another layer of paint. And no more shutter issues! If I try to partially erase the paint or just let it be for a few days, the shutter bugs out again, infrequently at first, but consistently each time after a while. So it seems like the code reader attempts to read the code one second after pressing the shutter? (How often does it try to read the code when the camera is idle?) And when it can't find a code during a shot, it will simply stop the shot.

Maybe the shutter issue is not related to the freeze issue, but that's 2 bugs I experienced that are related to the code reader.

My situation may be uncommon: non-coded lenses, using manual M lens selection (because I want to use 1/(xf) min shutter speed and also get the lens info in the exif) and changing lenses frequently.

I did send videos and descriptions of the bugs to Leica.

I ended up buying a 50 Summilux as well as the 35mm Summilux steel rim re-issue so if my hypothesis is correct, I won't experience freezes anymore. But I still have a Voigtlander 28mm Ultron II which I'll use from time to time, so I'll keep you updated...

Most of my lenses are modern Leica lenses, but I do have the 28mm Ultron II and the older 135mm that have no 6bit coding.

I haven't had non-coded lens issues. It could be a bug, but I would check if the code strip on the camera is clean! I did code a 90 apo in the past on M10-P and it was always giving me issues, so much that I took coding off. 
I if it is not a bug, the code sensor could be defective, that has happened before.

 

[Photoworks]

8 hours ago, leif posegger said:

2 - use the internal memory ( always ).. then transfer the pictures to an SD card when the internal is full .. then continue using the internal 

do you still have the SD card in? because it will try to access it on boot, and that is where people had issues in the past.
I think this issue has been solved in 1.6.1

[SJH]

3 hours ago, Qlan said:

I am also a software engineer, so I think I now have a good understanding of why freezes are still happening to me on 2 different bodies after many tests. I think it is a firmware issue.

My hypothesis is that the lens detection module (6-bit code reader) has bugs. First, it is never off, it is always trying to read the code (at what frequency I don't know). I am using third party lenses, so no 6-bit code. Also I change lenses very frequently when I'm out shooting (20+ times in a day). Most of my freezes happen at startup, after changing the lens. I also notice that sometimes the quick menu will show "No lens" or "Uncoded" for the lens selection for a split second before going back to the "manual M" setting I chose.

I decided to finally manually code my lenses and see if that makes a difference. My painting is not great, so I guess the code reader sometimes has trouble reading the code and bugs out.

After I coded my lenses, I got a new bug: the mechanical shutter doesn't respect the shutter speed I chose and stops at 1s (or sometimes 1.5s, 2s) (only for shutter speed >1s). See this thread.

And I figured out what is causing this. It seems like my manual coding of the lens is fading, so I put another layer of paint. And no more shutter issues! If I try to partially erase the paint or just let it be for a few days, the shutter bugs out again, infrequently at first, but consistently each time after a while. So it seems like the code reader attempts to read the code one second after pressing the shutter? (How often does it try to read the code when the camera is idle?) And when it can't find a code during a shot, it will simply stop the shot.

Maybe the shutter issue is not related to the freeze issue, but that's 2 bugs I experienced that are related to the code reader.

My situation may be uncommon: non-coded lenses, using manual M lens selection (because I want to use 1/(xf) min shutter speed and also get the lens info in the exif) and changing lenses frequently.

I did send videos and descriptions of the bugs to Leica.

I ended up buying a 50 Summilux as well as the 35mm Summilux steel rim re-issue so if my hypothesis is correct, I won't experience freezes anymore. But I still have a Voigtlander 28mm Ultron II which I'll use from time to time, so I'll keep you updated...

Thanks Qlan that all makes a lot of sense and great to see a summary like this, very useful for people. 

[EJS73]

Haven't had a lock-up since December. My non-coded 135 is recognised as the R adapter but I guess that is because I never bothered setting the lens manually in the menu.

[Guest]

Do we really need another thread on this?

I thought we'd only just merged them into one and now it's bifurcating again.

[Herr Barnack]

Freeze-up threads are organic and are therefore susceptible to mitosis. 

[Warton]

4 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Freeze-up threads are organic and are therefore susceptible to mitosis. 

now you are a biologist?

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[J S H]

2 hours ago, Corius said:

Do we really need another thread on this?

I thought we'd only just merged them into one and now it's bifurcating again.

I have been very fortunate that my M11 has behaved pretty well. Maybe one freeze a week before 1.6.1 and none since. I assume yours has no issues as well. We are the lucky ones.

Until Leica solves this problem for every user, those with continuing issues need all the help they can get. One more thread with a fresh approach isn't going to hurt a thing. SJH is obviously trying to bring his experience to bear on the issue. No one is making you read the thread, so maybe you can just ignore it without complaint. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, J S H said:

I have been very fortunate that my M11 has behaved pretty well. Maybe one freeze a week before 1.6.1 and none since. I assume yours has no issues as well. We are the lucky ones.

Until Leica solves this problem for every user, those with continuing issues need all the help they can get. One more thread with a fresh approach isn't going to hurt a thing. SJH is obviously trying to bring his experience to bear on the issue. No one is making you read the thread, so maybe you can just ignore it without complaint. 

Ah, but I am interested in freeze ups, although I have only had two a few months ago, but I'd like to just go to one thread to read about them.