M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[Adam Bonn]

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18 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

If the sensor has any relevance, then not so much, as it’s unrelated to the M10 sensor, instead based on S3 sensor architecture.

Jeff

If my understanding is correct… both (10/10R & S3) manufactured by CMOSIS/AMS and 240/262 by CMOSIS (before AMS merger/acquisition) that right there is continuity.

M11 someone new, (Sony apparently)

 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Adam Bonn said:

If my understanding is correct… both (10/10R & S3) manufactured by CMOSIS/AMS and 240/262 by CMOSIS (before AMS merger/acquisition) that right there is continuity.

M11 someone new, (Sony apparently)

 

Yes, and each with STM involvement, I think.  I understand that the M240 sensor architecture was similarly derived from the S007.  
 

Somehow things seemed to go fairly smoothly when transitioning from the Kodak (?) M9 CCD sensor to the M240. But there are always teething and maturity issues, regardless, just to different degrees.  I have no interest in an M11 for my own use, but still curious how it plays out.

Jeff

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

 As I understand it, previous models of the Leica M, up to and including the M10-R, do not crash

This is incorrect. The M240 locked up regularly, especially using the EVF. Leica solved the problem, which was caused by overheating, with a firmware update.

[hmzimelka]

6 hours ago, Musky said:

You should try the new UHS-I 200mb/s cards. But the 256GB ones. 

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They are exactly the same as far as I know... the 95MB/sec card can achieve the same speeds as the above with Sandisks proprietary card reader. I saw someone on YouTube do a side by side test and they essentially had the same results, and it's with Sandisk's proprietary reader that one achieves higher than UHS-I speeds with their UHS-I card. 

[hmzimelka]

8 hours ago, Musky said:

You can also put UHS-II on the M10’s, it just uses the top contact obviously. I don’t know why the M11 write speeds on UHS-II are the same as M10 on UHS-I. It has to have a UHS-II card interface so I don’t get it. 

 

This is what you get with an M10 on one of the new UHS-I 200MB/s cards. 

I did not get anywhere close to 99MB/sec on my M10M with the SanDisk 95MB/sec Card. The 200MB/s card you linked is essentially the same card in a different wrapper. 

There isn't a single UHS-I card that reaches maximum UHS-I speeds without a proprietary card reader. I can confidently say that the 200MB/s card will not achieve anywhere near 99MB/s speeds in any camera let alone the Leica M10 family of cameras. 
 

[Fatih]

New Leica M11 owner here. It’s my first Leica and I’ve experienced it 2 two times during my initial test runs. I had to take out the battery. It was weird coming from a Fuji X100V to see such an error, I thought it might be the firmware. Updated it to v1.6.0, but I’ve seen it happen again afterwards. I’m planning to increase auto-shut behavior so it doesn’t turn it off immediately, to see whether that fixes the issues. 

[Antonio Russell]

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14 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Is the M11 specifically designed to make use of the higher speeds on a USH-II over an USH-1 ?  Or, is the M11 currently an USH-1 device which also works on UHS-II, but doesn't make use of the higher speed capability?

https://havecamerawilltravel.com/uhs-i-vs-uhs-ii-sd-microsd-cards/

M11 Manual states: UHS-II (recommended). 

[Stef63]

1 hour ago, Fatih said:

. I’m planning to increase auto-shut behavior so it doesn’t turn it off immediately, to see whether that fixes the issues. 

... or try for a while using internal storage only to rule out SD card incompatibility.  If this resolves the problem, get another brand of SD card.  It may sound weird in 2022, but Leica cameras are still notorious for being very picky to the type or brand of SD Cards.

[Adam Bonn]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

 

Somehow things seemed to go fairly smoothly when transitioning from the Kodak (?) M9 CCD sensor to the M240. But there are always teething and maturity issues, regardless, just to different degrees.  I have no interest in an M11 for my own use, but still curious how it plays out.

Jeff

 

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

This is incorrect. The M240 locked up regularly, especially using the EVF. Leica solved the problem, which was caused by overheating, with a firmware update.

Exactly Jaapv!

Things weren’t super smooth at the very start of the 240.. but then they got fixed.

But then Leica didn’t really make much of a supplier change for the fat end of a decade and enjoyed relative stability. Then they changed sensor supplier and added other new stuff (eg on board storage, off sensor metering, variable resolution) and now (well, for now anyway) stability has decreased.

 

[M11 for me]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Antonio Russell:

M11 Manual states: UHS-II (recommended). 

correct: see page 171. Its new to me.

Does this mean that the M11 has an UHS-II card slot with its respective speed? Up to niw I akways used UHS-I cards.

[Farkle-Mpls]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:53 AM, Tailwagger said:

Have you gone back and read all the complaints about the 240, M10 and 10-R?  Every generation of M has had it detractors, particularly in its first year. I've experienced occasional lockups with every digital Leica I've ever owned which includes the 240, M10, M10-R, Q and SL2.  The advantage of the M11 over all the previous generations in this regard is that it takes a split second to pull the lever on the battery and push it back in.  Was a real PITA with the previous generations bottom plate to force a reset.

AFAIC, the M11 is a substantial upgrade over the 10/10-R, but much depends on what you value and how you shoot.  Personally, having traded my 240 and M10 when I upgraded to the 10-R, if I knew then what I know now, I'd have kept them for their gentler rendering particularly with earlier glass, skipped the R and waited the year and half for the M11. Each generation of M has had some measure of unique character, but of the four, I personally find the 10-R the least compelling in that regard.  Since acquiring the M11, mine has sat gather dust waiting for the day when I figure out just what to trade it in on.  That said, if pressed to crown one of the four I've owned, I'd have to say that the original M10, while not the most capable, nor accurate, remains my favorite. The M11 is a very close second.

 

It's been a month since this post but I'd re-affirm what Tailwagger said, backed by my personal experience.  I've had an M9, M240, M10, M10-R and now an M11.  They ALL locked up at some point!  We can all agree it's a pity for such an expensive camera but cost and reliability do not necessarily equate with one another.   Remember Leica is still a niche product and weird "edge" performance issues are endemic with niche products from a smaller company.  In Leica's defense, over time they seem to have fixed such issues with firmware updates once in the field.  Buy the camera body you want and take photos and if the camera locks, pull the battery, re-insert and continue.  Sounds a lot like Windows OS the first 15 years or so and people put up with it and worked around it.  Enjoy your camera!

[lct]

1 hour ago, Farkle-Mpls said:

Buy the camera body you want and take photos and if the camera locks, pull the battery, re-insert and continue [...]

This is exactly what i don't want to do sorry. Sorry to repeat what i said above but it never happened to me on any of my dozen digital cameras and especially no Leica camera including Digilux 1, M8.2, M240 and digital CL. So when you state like some good colleagues here that this is normal to pull and re-insert a battery we cannot agree on this, i mean, at any price, it is not a matter of money but quality, at least to me. YMMV .

[MikeMyers]

3 hours ago, lct said:

This is exactly what i don't want to do sorry. Sorry to repeat what i said above but it never happened to me on any of my dozen digital cameras and especially no Leica camera including Digilux 1, M8.2, M240 and digital CL. So when you state like some good colleagues here that this is normal to pull and re-insert a battery we cannot agree on this, i mean, at any price, it is not a matter of money but quality, at least to me. YMMV .

When the Nikon D2h was released, I bought one from the first batch that were sent to B&H in NYC.  It died soon after I started to use it.  Nikon said to send just the body back, and they replaced it with full new D2h kit.  As I recall this happened three or four times.  (Each time I got an additional battery to keep!). By then, the Nikon D2x had been released.  Nikon asked me what I wanted after my last failure, and I told them I want to send my latest D2h back, and let them send me a D2x that they had been using in house.  The D2x worked fine, but it kept getting hot - but at least it worked.   Rule for me to follow from then on, never buy a new camera that is first being released.  I later bought a D3, and a D750, and a Df, which worked fine.  When the D70 was first released, I was leaving on a trip, and stupidly bought one out of the first batch of cameras - again!  I made it to Italy, and after about ten photos, it died. 

With Leica, I have been smarter (for various reasons, including the cost).  I bought my M8.2 a month or two before the M9 was released.  The M8.2 worked perfectly.  I skipped over the newer Leica cameras until the M10 came out, but I didn't buy one until around two years after they had been released.  Again, no problems, no issues, it just worked.

 

Fast forward to the present.  I decided long ago that I didn't want an M11, but over the past year I've been getting much more tempted.  Maybe by the time the M12 comes out, the M11 will have been perfected.  In the meantime, 99% of why I want a Leica M is completely satisfied with the M10.  To me, the M11 is likely a wonderful camera, but still needs "the bugs worked out".  Fortunately, I'm also starting to think that it doesn't really matter which M I buy and use - they all will do the same thing for me.

Regarding the text I'm quoting up above, I do agree this is normal to pull and re-insert a battery but only for a new camera just being introduced.  Personally, I would use the word "expected" rather than "normal".  I used to be involved in writing software, and it always takes time to work the bugs out.  Even Tesla is finding this out.

 

Think back to when Boeing recently had to ground a whole fleet of their planes, because of software.  

They may frustrate us, but at least our Leica's won't kill us.

(I'm going to stop following this thread - maybe a year from now, the M11 will be just as reliable as the M10.)

[Henners]

First proper outing with the M11 and got two lockups. I thought it had switched to electronic shutter the first time as the shutter wasn't actuating but nope, it was just locked up and it missed a bunch of photos... Not ideal for such an expensive camera, I would expect to be able to rely on it to take photos. 😕

Edited December 27, 2022 by Henners

[Fatih]

Coming back from a field trip. Had around 5 lock-ups, it was pretty annoying. The auto-shut behavior wasn’t helpful at all.

Tomorrow, I’m planning to take out the SD-Card and only use the internal 64GB. I guess it’ll be enough for a single field trip. I’ll post my findings. I hope it’s not the SD card, because it’s not cheap and I paid more to get a faster one 😕 (which is btw a SanDisk Extreme PRO 128GB SDXC UHS-II, Class 10, V90, U3).

[lct]

If you have old user profiles you may wish to update them. See:

 

[MikeMyers]

OK, I'll stay.

[Herr Barnack]

It is truly a shame that a camera like the M11 is plagued with these problems. 

The fact that these glitches are not universal but appear to be present in a minority of M11 cameras that are in user's hands is puzzling.  Are they due to SD cards that for whatever reason are just not compatible with the M11's firmware/software/hardware?  Are these glitches due to the M11's batteries?  If so, why are Leica's M11 batts causing problems with the camera they were designed and built for?

Are the glitches somehow due to the M11's 64 GB internal memory? 

Will the M11 finally be debugged by the time the M11-P appears?  Will the M11 ever be fully debugged and fully operational?

If the M12 lands on dealer's shelves and the M11 platform is still not yet debugged, will that negatively impact Leica's credibility and/or cause potential buyers to become averse to sinking many thousands of dollars (perhaps 10,000 of them) into an M12 purchase? 

All things considered, the M11's state of affairs is a matter of much concern for prospective M11 buyers - and it has the potential to cause significant problems for Leica down the road if all of the kinks cannot be ironed out of the M11.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Eugene Young]

28 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

It is truly a shame that a camera like the M11 is plagued with these problems. 

The fact that these glitches are not universal but appear to be present in a minority of M11 cameras that are in user's hands is puzzling.  Are they due to SD cards that for whatever reason are just not compatible with the M11's firmware/software/hardware?  Are these glitches due to the M11's batteries?  If so, why are Leica's M11 batts causing problems with the camera they were designed and built for?

Are the glitches somehow due to the M11's 64 GB internal memory? 

Will the M11 finally be debugged by the time the M11-P appears?  Will the M11 ever be fully debugged and fully operational?

If the M12 lands on dealer's shelves and the M11 platform is still not yet debugged, will that negatively impact Leica's credibility and/or cause potential buyers to become averse to sinking many thousands of dollars (perhaps 10,000 of them) into an M12 purchase? 

All things considered, the M11's state of affairs is a matter of much concern for prospective M11 buyers - and it has the potential to cause significant problems for Leica down the road if all of the kinks cannot be ironed out of the M11.

 

 

I absolutly agree!

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[Gigamesh]

I have the freeze issue, exchanged the first unit due to the freeze, the second had the same problem. Leica promised me that the issue will be resolved with the 1.6 firmware. Still have the freeze. 

Multiple factory resets
Coded/uncoded lenses
Memory card/no memory card (internal storage) 

None of these factors above affect the problem.