M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[SJH]

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On 6/15/2023 at 6:57 PM, IkarusJohn said:

Excuse the selective quote, but do you actually know that it’s only affecting a “tiny tiny minority still experiencing multi freezes”.  This isn’t a banana; it’s an extremely expensive camera.

The converse is more compelling - Leica has form.  I know I keep banging on about this, but successive Leica products have been recalled due to quality issues (the 35 Summilux (FLE) and 50 APO spring to mind), and Leica tried to deny the corrosion issue with the M9 long after it became obvious that the sensor cover glass was faulty. Exactly the same point about only a few cameras being susceptible to corrosion - ultimately, Leica had to offer free replacement for ever affected camera after pressure here on this forum.  The only Leica camera release I can think of that was trouble free was the SL. And mine bricked  

Now, I don’t disagree that this may be a strange flaw in the software, where a combination of settings results in a freeze or even the camera bricking. We've seen such flaws in many releases of computer operating systems. Hopefully Leica will sort the problem. But, we’re not talking a Windows or Apple operating system here. It’s a camera taking still images. 

My view?  The M11 takes an enormous leap technologically from the M10, and a lot of it was ill-conceived. There’s a lot going on in that camera that Leica wasn’t doing before, and it clearly hasn’t been properly thought through.
 

Nope I don't know for certain but having kept up with this thread there aren't many people that have multiple freeze or are on their 2nd or 3rd camera as a result. I think that's rather different than say the M9 fiasco of course. Equally in recent times Leica have done a 'hands up' with the M6 pressure plate issue so it wouldn't seem that they are now in a stage of being in denial.

The only comments I've heard from Leica people is really what I've been posting above, they have acknowledged freezing in firmware updates which is more than most camera manufactures do and since 1.6 there are even less issues it would appear. The reality is that every other manufacturer has some freezing.

Leica owners tend to be quite vocal in here if things go wrong (and rightly so) but have a look back yourself and see when 1.6 was release for example and then how many people since then have multiple freezes apart from the odd one or two. This is the only 'evidence' in the public domain so I imagine Leica have checked over it too and looked at returned camera numbers. It's very annoying for those that do experience the issues of course but at the moment Leica rightly accepted the issue with the early M6 batch (I had one so I'm not in denial over these things) but I don't think they feel it necessary to comment at the moment, given the numbers we see in here. It's the new camera 'normal' for the time being but that might change if they mess up a firmware update for example.

[IkarusJohn]

Too much speculation to draw any real conclusions, other than what we know.  There is a problem with the M11, and this forum represents a tiny minority of M11 buyers.  Of course, more people will say there is a problem than forum members saying they don’t have a problem.

But, what we also know is that the M11 is a huge technological leap from the M10 (arguably, Leica’s most successful digital M) - 60MP (unnecessary, and raising problems of its own); pixel binning (why?); cropping in camera (easier in post); and permanent live sensor (the shutter on the M10 is great).  It’s only my view, but much like the M(240), the M11 is heading in a very different direction from the traditional M camera - think about every move away from the M3 paradigm:

• adding new frame-lines was a step too far for some
• adding the meter to the M5, while good, resulted in a new body which Leica users hated
• M6 added a meter, but it was not as good as the M5, or what was available on Nikon cameras released at the time
• M(240) adding video and its Swiss Army knife baseplate

Leica M cameras have always been more stripped down than other camera alternatives, because they focused on “das wesentliche” - perhaps like their other strapline, “a camera for life”, this concept has been quietly ditched.  An alternative is that I have got too old for Leica, and the M design team is now populated with Millennials, who want what technology can provide, rather than what traditional photographers need, and nothing more.

Edited June 16, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[lct]

There are M10 cameras for traditional photographers. The M11 is a modern camera aimed at people interested in both RF and LV modes. Not sure what freezes have to do with that. I too would prefer facts to speculation though. Leica should communicate to confirm, at the very least, if they are working on a firmware update or not.

[IkarusJohn]

38 minutes ago, lct said:

There are M10 cameras for traditional photographers …

Not for long.

Next there will be some form of P model, or similar, with the traditional script, black paint over brass, etc etc and the residual M10 based camera stock will have sold.  The M11 and M11-M will soon be the only new digital M cameras available, and so, this is a development of concern …

Freezing and bricking is just more of the same (says he with a dead M10-D currently in Wetzlar).

[jakontil]

26 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not for long.

Next there will be some form of P model, or similar, with the traditional script, black paint over brass, etc etc and the residual M10 based camera stock will have sold.  The M11 and M11-M will soon be the only new digital M cameras available, and so, this is a development of concern …

Freezing and bricking is just more of the same (says he with a dead M10-D currently in Wetzlar).

Reminds me of the quote, “leica for life”

 

jason Momoa

[lct]

34 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not for long.

Next there will be some form of P model, or similar, with the traditional script, black paint over brass, etc etc and the residual M10 based camera stock will have sold.  The M11 and M11-M will soon be the only new digital M cameras available, and so, this is a development of concern …

Not sure i would bother too much about that. Leica has always favoured the conservative fraction of its clientele, hence the famous, and somewhat ridiculous, “das wesentliche” and "M means Messsucher" mantras.

[scott kirkpatrick]

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42 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

... ...

Freezing and bricking is just more of the same (says he with a dead M10-D currently in Wetzlar).

Sorry to hear about your M10-D, but please let us know what went wrong and the outcome.  I shoot mostly with M11, but use my M10-D for the second lens needed.  It has been trouble-free for the past year.  Of course, I set things so that they just work and leave them that way.  The M11 needed almost completely new firmware for the functions running on its ARM core multiprocessor, so some of the embarrassments that came with the first few firmware releases were not a complete surprise.  I would think it is pretty stable now, and the firmware team(s?) may be focussed on getting new AF algorithms and 16K video running on the Q and SL3.

[IkarusJohn]

21 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Sorry to hear about your M10-D, but please let us know what went wrong and the outcome.  I shoot mostly with M11, but use my M10-D for the second lens needed.  It has been trouble-free for the past year.  Of course, I set things so that they just work and leave them that way.  The M11 needed almost completely new firmware for the functions running on its ARM core multiprocessor, so some of the embarrassments that came with the first few firmware releases were not a complete surprise.  I would think it is pretty stable now, and the firmware team(s?) may be focussed on getting new AF algorithms and 16K video running on the Q and SL3.

Thanks, Scott.

I bought the M10-D on release in 2018, and it has worked flawlessly since.  Then, one day a few weeks ago, I took my jacket out of the backseat of the car, forgetting I had my Monochrom under it (not to attract attention).  It dropped about a metre onto the concrete - rangefinder misaligned, and I wasn’t sure about the 50 Summilux ASPH attached to it, so they both went off to Wetzlar.

I hadn’t been using the M10-D so much, but was pleased to take it out.  After a day or two, I got an “sd” message in the viewfinder - nothing working.  I formatted the card, but it seemed to be corrupted - couldn’t fix it, so tried another card, and also got the “sd” message.  Went to the dealer (Progear in Auckland), and they tried a different card - no joy, so it’s gone to Wetzlar too, leaving me with the M-A, which I am really enjoying.  It’s smaller and simpler in so many ways.

I thought, as I had another camera going to Germany, I’d get my 35 Summilux pre-asph looked at and coded.  Got the message back last week that they can’t code it, they are going to clean it, but interestingly, they said it wasn’t suited to M digital use …. I can use it on the M-A happily (it’s a nice combination), and I have another 35 for my digital, if they come back!

So, here’s hoping.

I’ve been looking at my gear, and my general unease with the M digitals (since the M9 sensor debacle) and pretty much decided I won’t buy another M digital (famous last words - if my Monochrom dies, I will probably replace it).  So, I’m selling my Noctilux 0.95 (no buyers here, so I will list it on eBay) and the 24-90 Vario-Elmarit-SL, and will buy back into the Hasselblad X system, starting with the X2D and XCD 38/2.5 V.  If I like the X2D, I’ll add more lenses as they become available.  With the Leicas, I will still have the M-A (& Monochrom?) and SL for M lenses.  The SL is nice with M lesnes, and I still have the APO Elmarit-R 180/2.8 and converter for telephoto.

I must confess to being disappointed the the Leica M digitals.  The M10 has been the best of them, and it is irritating to have the M10-D fail, and the M11 go in a direction of little interest to me.  C’est la vie, as they say.

Cheers
John

[maidenfan84]

2 hours ago, lct said:

There are M10 cameras for traditional photographers. The M11 is a modern camera aimed at people interested in both RF and LV modes. Not sure what freezes have to do with that. I too would prefer facts to speculation though. Leica should communicate to confirm, at the very least, if they are working on a firmware update or not.

I’m a purist at heart, but I will say the LV works wonders for me (on any camera with LV) because I often ride a motorcycle and the LV lets me take photos while I don’t have to take the helmet off, get it back on and adjusted, etc. I can simply pull the camera out and see the big screen through the helmet visor. It’s been a huge blessing in many ways when I’m not able to use the VF

[lct]

4 hours ago, maidenfan84 said:

I’m a purist at heart, but I will say the LV works wonders for me (on any camera with LV) because I often ride a motorcycle and the LV lets me take photos while I don’t have to take the helmet off, get it back on and adjusted, etc. I can simply pull the camera out and see the big screen through the helmet visor. It’s been a huge blessing in many ways when I’m not able to use the VF

Welcome to the club  I've been using M cameras for half a century but contrary to some traditional users here (i won't say conservative again, sorry folks...), the M11 gives me practically everything I want in photography. I don't drive motorcycles but i use several legacy lenses that have never been working so well on the M11.  Also i'm interested in closeups and macro photos and nothing can beat a good EVF for that. I can also use both RF and EVF in the same shooting if needed. I then applaud to the modern approach chosen by Leica but i still miss IBIS and shorter shutter actuations that i will find in an EVF-M and/or the M12 hopefully. Now this has nothing to do with freezes, sorry for the OT.

[neonvoid]

13 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

But, what we also know is that the M11 is a huge technological leap from the M10

I am against such apologist statements. The M11 shouldn't have been released if the freezing issues where known upfront.
If QA didn't catch the issue, then a statement from Leica is due.

Edited June 17, 2023 by neonvoid

[lucy63]

On 6/16/2023 at 12:13 AM, DadDadDaddyo said:

Can someone describe the difference between when a camera freezes and when a camera bricks?

Is it that the freeze is reversible/recoverable, but the brick is not?

I want to understand the local dialect and use it correctly. 

The trouble is, there is sometimes nomenclature that masquerades as a precise form of speech, recognized by the tribe, but which seems, upon examination, to stem more from the realm of impressions and feelings than engineering and technology.

Often, it is language used so frequently by so many that we only assume we each mean the same thing as each other. We seem to use it because it carries a kind of tribal imprimatur, a "weight", a certain heft.

Like "Rendering."

"Rendering" as a noun, or "Render" as a verb, that is, at least in conversations not having to do with the process of extracting fat from meat. 

I found myself writing, "After taking pictures of the wall I changed lenses without powering down the camera and it bricked. I changed lenses because I didn't like how the first lens rendered the bricks. But I pulled the battery to unbrick it. I'll print the results so you can render your own judgement," but fortunately my inner editor was able to catch it in time. 

I'll start the ball rolling. I hereby pledge not to say "...how this lens/sensor/model renders," for a long, long time, but instead to say, "...how pictures from this lens/sensor/model come out."

At least until Hell bricks....

My fist M11 was a freezer, I missed a lot of shots. The replacement semi bricked ie completely unresponsive for 24 hours but was alive again on arrival back at the shop, apparently.

[elmars]

vor einer Stunde schrieb neonvoid:

if the freezing issues where known upfront.

As I mentioned several times: It was not known. I was one of the betatesters and from a certain point on we had no freezes. 

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, elmars said:

As I mentioned several times: It was not known. I was one of the betatesters and from a certain point on we had no freezes. 

Are the beta testers discussing issues in a forum/group setting? If not, how would you know that no one else had an issue with freezing?

[hdmesa]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:10 AM, lct said:

Leica's working on a firmware update, as i understand it, which would contradict both faulty hardware and "nothing to see" theories IMHO.

The fact that they’re trying to find a firmware solution doesn’t preclude a hardware issue, known or unknown.

[IkarusJohn]

8 hours ago, neonvoid said:

I am against such apologist statements. The M11 shouldn't have been released if the freezing issues where known upfront.
If QA didn't catch the issue, then a statement from Leica is due.

?

Did you misread my post, or were you just looking for something to disagree with?

[lct]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

The fact that they’re trying to find a firmware solution doesn’t preclude a hardware issue, known or unknown.

The fact that they’re trying to find a firmware solution is at least evidence that there can be a firmware issue while the faulty hardware theory is based on no evidence unless i'm missing something.

[hdmesa]

15 minutes ago, lct said:

The fact that they’re trying to find a firmware solution is at least evidence that there can be a firmware issue while the faulty hardware theory is based on no evidence unless i'm missing something.

When Leica told me they were working on the freezing issue, I took that to mean they are still trying to reproduce the issue reliably so that can figure out where in the code to look. I wasn’t told this directly, but it sounded like from my emails back and forth with them that once they can reproduce an issue, a firmware fix can be written very quickly, perhaps only a few days, which would of course then have to be tested. 

There are at least two or more freezing issues, those that occur at startup and those that occur during use. They do not appear to be related, but I don’t know. 

Basically, “working on a fix” can mean anything in the process from trying to figure out how to reproduce the issue to knowing how and trying to write the fix into firmware. Given how quickly it sounded like they can write a fix, I think they are still trying to reproduce the issues and find the right combination of conditions that cause freezes. 

[neonvoid]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

?

Did you misread my post, or were you just looking for something to disagree with?

Probably misread, sorry.

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[elmars]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

Are the beta testers discussing issues in a forum/group setting?

Of course we do!