FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 10, 2023 Share #1501 Posted June 10, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 7 hours ago, neonvoid said: Yeah, let me just disable all the useful camera features and then maybe, just maybe, I could go a day without the thing locking up. Setting auto review from *off* to *shutter button* doesn’t really change the usability of the camera in any significant way, except, for me, completely eliminated lockups and delayed shutter. I despise any auto preview but *shutter button* doesn’t irk me at all. Definitely worth a try if you’re getting a delayed shutter issue. It may or may not cure the issue. But it’d have to be worth trying at least?? If you do have an auto preview set then you’re done. It’s only *no preview* that’s causing problems. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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lct Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1502 Posted June 11, 2023 2 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said: Setting auto review from *off* to *shutter button* doesn’t really change the usability of the camera in any significant way, except, for me, completely eliminated lockups and delayed shutter. I despise any auto preview but *shutter button* doesn’t irk me at all. Definitely worth a try if you’re getting a delayed shutter issue. It may or may not cure the issue. But it’d have to be worth trying at least?? If you do have an auto preview set then you’re done. It’s only *no preview* that’s causing problems. Gordon Good idea if it may help those of us who suffer from freezes or lockups. Don't count me in since auto review off has never been a problem for me but your suggestion does no harm i'm aware of so i don't mind adding it to my tips below. 1. Switch camera off before mounting or removing a coded lens or adapter. 2. Switch camera off before mounting or removing the Visoflex 2. 3. Format memory cards with SD Card Formatter before inserting such cards in the camera. 4. Do not select lens detection auto for uncoded lenses. 5. Set auto review to shutter button pressed. 6. Don't feel compelled to follow the tips above, they are purely empirical. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakontil Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1503 Posted June 11, 2023 3 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said: Setting auto review from *off* to *shutter button* doesn’t really change the usability of the camera in any significant way, except, for me, completely eliminated lockups and delayed shutter. I despise any auto preview but *shutter button* doesn’t irk me at all. Definitely worth a try if you’re getting a delayed shutter issue. It may or may not cure the issue. But it’d have to be worth trying at least?? If you do have an auto preview set then you’re done. It’s only *no preview* that’s causing problems. Gordon hi gordon, i thought the no preview have been flawless all this time? with a preview set to any second that causing lockups? i have never set preview on any M digital prior to M11 though, that's what i m used to and it didnt really give me lockups Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1504 Posted June 11, 2023 4 hours ago, jakontil said: hi gordon, i thought the no preview have been flawless all this time? with a preview set to any second that causing lockups? i have never set preview on any M digital prior to M11 though, that's what i m used to and it didnt really give me lockups No. It’s the *no preview* that’s the issue, for some, including me. The rest are all fine. Try *shutter button* for a couple of days…. This is also the first M I’ve had issues with preview off. And I don’t have the problem with my M11M. Gordon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1505 Posted June 11, 2023 5 hours ago, lct said: Good idea if it may help those of us who suffer from freezes or lockups. Don't count me in since auto review off has never been a problem for me but your suggestion does no harm i'm aware of so i don't mind adding it to my tips below. 1. Switch camera off before mounting or removing a coded lens or adapter. 2. Switch camera off before mounting or removing the Visoflex 2. 3. Format memory cards with SD Card Formatter before inserting such cards in the camera. 4. Do not select lens detection auto for uncoded lenses. 5. Set auto review to shutter button pressed. 6. Don't feel compelled to follow the tips above, they are purely empirical. Decent advice although I don’t do 2, 3 or 4. No 5 sorted all my issues and haven’t had anything after the first few weeks. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1506 Posted June 11, 2023 33 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said: Decent advice although I don’t do 2, 3 or 4. No 5 sorted all my issues and haven’t had anything after the first few weeks. So much the better if it works for you. Never heard of 5 until you i must say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maidenfan84 Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1507 Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) On 6/9/2023 at 12:11 AM, hmzimelka said: I don't get the fixation on SD Card Formatter as the magic bullet for Leica's shortcomings. Even if some SD cards can cause hang ups, it's not an excuse for Leica, and they should get their act together. The issue with the M11 is not SD card related. I'm pretty sure this has been made clear several times over in this forum. I format my SD cards in camera, but most of the time I actually just delete all images via the computer or in camera. Sacrilege!!! The only feature of SD Card Formatter I use is the full disk overwrite format, maybe once a year, if that. Also, I use a 128GB Lexar Professional 1667x most of the time which is a brand some Leica users spit at. I've probably had less than three freezes since firmware 1.6.1 was installed, and I don't think more than one of those needed a battery pull. I use my camera almost daily, and while I don't shoot huge amounts of images and I'm fairly selective, I'm still at around 18000 actuations since March 2022. I no longer own any 6 Bit Leica lenses with exception of my Summicron-M 50mm V. I use Voigtlander lenses which are manually 6-bit coded, some that aren't 6 bit coded, and some vintage Leica lenses that aren't 6 Bit coded either. Also, my camera charges via cable when it's both switched on or off. There seems to be varying user reports on how their cameras behave. I don't hold Leica in high regard. In fact I find how they deal with various issues rather distasteful, and I've personally lost a lot of money on having purchased faulty and defective gear from them over the last 1.5 years. The latest statement or report regarding the M6 pressure plate issue is just a good example how full of **** they are. The company needs to get off its virtuous high horse and start building up the confidence of its customers again. I consider myself lucky that my M11 is behaving. Would I buy another or an M11M, or even recommend it? Absolutely no! I was prepared to put down the money for a new M11. And this is exactly why I didn’t. It’s safer to buy a used older Leica than a new Leica. That’s really sad to say, but it seems to be truer and truer as the days pass. A magic fix for an SD card, or pulling the battery to ‘solve’ a freeze…these are things that shouldn’t even be happening on a $9000 USD camera, let alone a $900 USD camera (or any new camera, for that matter). Sure, Leica is legendary. But that doesn’t mean to me they get continuous free passes to keep selling high end camera equipment while ignoring issues. Maybe if they release an M12 where they actually address the issues, I’ll consider buying a new Leica. But at this time, not even a chance. Another reason that pushed me to not buy a new one is the response I get when I ask Leica Store staff and other influencers about the issues. They act like there’s zero issues at all. For example, i watched an M11 broadcast from a well known Leica store. I asked a direct question during the live chat about these freezing issues, etc and guess what…they completely took ALL questions about the camera…but mine. I was the only question they tiptoed around and ignored. I asked a second time…same thing happened again. Says a lot to me when these ‘reputable’ shops and staff won’t even acknowledge these widespread issues just so they can sell a flawed product to those who don’t know otherwise. Edited June 11, 2023 by maidenfan84 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1508 Posted June 11, 2023 vor einer Stunde schrieb maidenfan84: Another reason that pushed me to not buy a new one is the response I get when I ask Leica Store staff and other influencers about the issues. They act like there’s zero issues at all. Such behaviour is unserious and out of the question. No trader has to badmouth his product. But he must not lie in response to a direct question. This behaviour is also stupid. Anyone who asks such a direct question is usually well informed and knows how to judge whether an answer is honest or not. In case of doubt, a trader loses this customer. vor einer Stunde schrieb maidenfan84: For example, i watched an M11 broadcast from a well known Leica store. I asked a direct question during the live chat about these freezing issues, etc and guess what…they completely took ALL questions about the camera…but mine. I was the only question they tiptoed around and ignored. I asked a second time…same thing happened again. I think you are talking about Red Dot camera talk. They are so enthusiastic and really good brand ambassadors for Leica. But I have a similar experience with them as you. It devalues their reputation. I don't understand that kind of behaviour either. Anyone who is reasonably well informed knows about the freeze problem. Why can't they communicate that the problem exists, put it in terms of its practical importance and especially emphasise that Leica is working on it (which is true, there is also significant progress, but still something to do). Maybe Leica dictates the way of communication to the dealers. It is conceivable, as they often act in a similar way. One of the few things that really bothers me about the company - much more than firmware issues, anyway. Bugs are never completely avoidable and not easy to fix; but miscommunication is a systemic flaw. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1509 Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) Miscommunication, i don't know but Leica's lack of communication is obvious here. Reminds me of the demise of the digital CL. I can understand that Leica's communication is not entrusted to dealers. I can also believe that freeze issues have been mostly fixed by firmware update 1.6.1, given that my M11 works flawlessly since then, but some problems remain according to a serious internet forum (oxymoron?) like the LUF, and Leica should disclose, at the very least, if these problems exist, how important they are, be they quantitatively minor, and if Leica is actually working to find a solution. The current mutism at Leica gives the impression that they don't know where they stand and can only encourage the paranoid trend of some posts. Nothing personal Just to put things in perspective, the last camera freeze bug has been fixed in April 2016 on the M240 i.e. almost 4 years after its launch. Edited June 11, 2023 by lct 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwimac Posted June 11, 2023 Share #1510 Posted June 11, 2023 20 hours ago, lct said: Good idea if it may help those of us who suffer from freezes or lockups. Don't count me in since auto review off has never been a problem for me but your suggestion does no harm i'm aware of so i don't mind adding it to my tips below. 1. Switch camera off before mounting or removing a coded lens or adapter. 2. Switch camera off before mounting or removing the Visoflex 2. 3. Format memory cards with SD Card Formatter before inserting such cards in the camera. 4. Do not select lens detection auto for uncoded lenses. 5. Set auto review to shutter button pressed. 6. Don't feel compelled to follow the tips above, they are purely empirical. I’ve always considered it best practice to turn any camera off before changing lenses. This applies double to cameras that have the shutter permanently open in use. Otherwise you’re exposing the sensor to contamination and M cameras don’t clean their own sensors like many modern cameras do. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1511 Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) I don't do most of the preventive measures recommended here. I keep auto review OFF. Have a VF-2 viewfinder on at all times, and use it often, since I shoot mostly with a wide angle. Because of the higher current drain of the VF-2, I switch off frequently. I download every day I am shooting, but do not reformat my card until it has overflowed into the built-in card. (Then I curse the extra button presses required to keep the camera shooting.) When I have filled a card, I pull out an older card that evening, reformat it in camera, transfer the images that got saved on the interior card to the fresh card, reformat the interior card, and proceed. Since 1.6.1 I have not had a stall, misfire, or funky exposure, but previously I could only make those happen by shooting much more rapidly than is my normal style, so I think the bugs were race conditions in the new Maestro (ARM) firmware, which will never be proven to have completely vanished, but seem now pretty rare. Edited June 12, 2023 by scott kirkpatrick 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1512 Posted June 12, 2023 3 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said: I don't do most of the preventive measures recommended here [...] Glad the M11 works fine for you. Mine does too, to the point that i can't seem to make it freeze at will. My tips are aimed at less lucky users. I wish they could try them and report on outcomes here. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nineteenfocus Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1513 Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) It’s quite confusing the freezing problem. After the last update some users still experience freezing. What’s the official statement from Leica? Is it a software problem or the CPU is not capable of handling the files? For info, Q3 has the same sensor and Maestro IV CPU is mounted. Is it safe to buy it now? June 2023. Edited June 12, 2023 by nineteenfocus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakontil Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1514 Posted June 12, 2023 3 hours ago, nineteenfocus said: It’s quite confusing the freezing problem. After the last update some users still experience freezing. What’s the official statement from Leica? Is it a software problem or the CPU is not capable of handling the files? For info, Q3 has the same sensor and Maestro IV CPU is mounted. Is it safe to buy it now? June 2023. i suspect the Maestro IV is used for recording 8K video, despite it's improved battery capability, it still has the same 350 shots rated? so probably it draws more power, wild guess Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJH Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1515 Posted June 12, 2023 3 hours ago, nineteenfocus said: It’s quite confusing the freezing problem. After the last update some users still experience freezing. What’s the official statement from Leica? Is it a software problem or the CPU is not capable of handling the files? For info, Q3 has the same sensor and Maestro IV CPU is mounted. Is it safe to buy it now? June 2023. In summary for you I think we can summarise M11 owners into 3 distinct categories as follows: 1. No freezes since purchase - this is me and to be fair I had more issues with my M10M (froze about 3 times) and my M10R (twice). I bought my M11 at launch and really use it. 2. 3 to 5 freezes from purchase but this tales off significantly since 1.6 - if you have other manufactures new gear and/or watch YouTube videos, as camera's launch you'll see this is fairly common now across most makes as software/firmware becomes infinitely more complex since Sony disrupted the DSLR market with the A7 series and sensors. 3. A relatively small number that have serial freezes and may well be on their 2nd or 3rd camera. Most people who've purchased an M11 are in groups 1 & 2 and speaking to Leica (I have no written evidence) they see it that way to. This is a wonderful forum but equally the situation can feel difficult because people will most likely (understandably) post multiple times from groups 2 & 3, thus creating the whole 'it's a disaster vibe' when it isn't in reality. As those from the tech world will probably agree with, usually group 3 is down to individual use cases as to have 2 or 3 units do the same thing and others are in group 1 & 2, points to just that. Tough to resolve in the firmware/software world without being able to replicate. So yes I think it's perfectly safe to buy an M11 now but if you are very very unlucky and in group 3 (and it happens with just about every other camera manufacture) then you'll need to just default to factory settings and work it all out direct with Leica as you add in say non coded lenses, try different SD cards etc. The number in this category since 1.6 appears to have fallen dramatically (from what was a very small sample size anyway) as far as I an tell from here and speaking to Leica and other M11 users e.g. I was at a Leica hosted event a couple of weeks ago. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1516 Posted June 12, 2023 4 hours ago, nineteenfocus said: [...] What’s the official statement from Leica? Is it a software problem or the CPU is not capable of handling the files? [...] Zero statements from Leica and nobody knows for certain if it is a software problem or not. As much as i like my freeze-free M11, i would not order a second body, if i needed it, as long as Leica does not communicate about the issue. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olaf_ZG Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1517 Posted June 12, 2023 18 minutes ago, lct said: Zero statements from Leica and nobody knows for certain if it is a software problem or not. As much as i like my freeze-free M11, i would not order a second body, if i needed it, as long as Leica does not communicate about the issue. And this is very bad, Leica not being open about it. They don’t have my trust to buy a camera at launch. I would love a SL3 with similar specs as the m11, but an ongoing phototrip will push my decision: waiting for the SL3 (plus one year to be sure), a (secondhand) SL2 or maybe the x2d. sometimes silence is not a good thing. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1518 Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) On 6/11/2023 at 4:20 AM, lct said: Miscommunication, i don't know but Leica's lack of communication is obvious here. Reminds me of the demise of the digital CL. I can understand that Leica's communication is not entrusted to dealers. I can also believe that freeze issues have been mostly fixed by firmware update 1.6.1, given that my M11 works flawlessly since then, but some problems remain according to a serious internet forum (oxymoron?) like the LUF, and Leica should disclose, at the very least, if these problems exist, how important they are, be they quantitatively minor, and if Leica is actually working to find a solution. The current mutism at Leica gives the impression that they don't know where they stand and can only encourage the paranoid trend of some posts. Nothing personal Just to put things in perspective, the last camera freeze bug has been fixed in April 2016 on the M240 i.e. almost 4 years after its launch. 2 hours ago, lct said: Zero statements from Leica and nobody knows for certain if it is a software problem or not. As much as i like my freeze-free M11, i would not order a second body, if i needed it, as long as Leica does not communicate about the issue. I’ve covered this in this thread, but it’s probably gotten lost in the shuffle. According to my conversations via email with Leica about the issue, they are WELL AWARE of continued freezes after the most recent firmware update, and they are prioritizing getting them fixed. However, I also stated that a major holdup is finding the exact conditions that cause the freezes. I was essentially told they could easily fix any repeatable freeze, but the freezing on startup that I and others here continue to experience is not consistently reproducible. I still maintain that the freeze on startup is likely a hardware defect, which would account for the random nature of the problem and the fact that NO SUGGESTED FIXES THUS FAR WORK. Speculation by me and others is that the startup freeze is a hardware problem with the 6-bit code reader. But who knows, really. We’re not Leica technicians. Edited June 12, 2023 by hdmesa 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1519 Posted June 12, 2023 1 hour ago, hdmesa said: I was essentially told they could easily fix any repeatable freeze, but the freezing on startup that I and others here continue to experience is not consistently reproducible. Which has been true since the dawn of the computer age. Real time multi-tasking in the face of random events with multi-level locking is fairly serious business and as time goes by, fewer and fewer engineers are truly schooled in the finer points of OS development. What will be more interesting is how the Q3 behaves. No doubt much of the code is shared across all the Maestro equipped offerings. Hopefully that camera will fare a little better. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 12, 2023 Share #1520 Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, hdmesa said: Speculation by me and others is that the startup freeze is a hardware problem with the 6-bit code reader. My code reader seems to work perfectly so far. How could it be a hardware issue then? Fact is some of us believe in speculations or hypotheses here but in all honesty, nobody knows for certain what cause(s) the freezes come from. Edited June 12, 2023 by lct 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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