M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[hdmesa]

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11 minutes ago, lct said:

I can only read the Leica instructions in this matter: « The lens type must be entered manually when using a Leica M lens without 6-bit encoding ». When following these instructions, the lens is treated as coded, while when ignoring them it is treated as uncoded as it shows in the menus. I have no idea if this has any connection with your problems but i prefer following instructions personally. YMMV.

Is English your first language? There is no directive in that quote, it is simply explaining how to get your uncoded lens to be treated as a coded lens.

And as I and @Qlan already mentioned, it doesn't matter for our particular type of freeze. It will still freeze with my 35 1.5 in all these situations:

• No profile chosen and lens shown as "Uncoded"
• Profile chosen (35 Lux ASPH pre-FLE equivalent)
• Lens Detection set to Off

Edit to add: I have shared all of this with Leica directly, and if I was treating my uncoded lens incorrectly, they would have already told me the only option was to select a manual profile for it and leaving it uncoded was "wrong". They did not say that nor point to it as a possible way to avoid the freezes.

Edited April 3, 2023 by hdmesa

[lct]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

This reads to me as saying it's fine to do it either way – choose a profile if you want the lens to be treated as coded, ignore choosing a code and the lens will be treated as uncoded. There is no directive in that quote

« must » ?

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, lct said:

« must » ?

A profile must be selected for an uncoded lens to be treated as coded. They are not saying a profile must be selected for an uncoded lens to function correctly.

Edited April 3, 2023 by hdmesa

[lct]

4 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

A profile must be selected for an uncoded lens to be treated as coded. They are not saying a profile must be selected for an uncoded lens to function correctly.

This is not my reading but English is not my first language and my reading has perhaps not the least connection with the fact that i have no freeze issues fortunately for me.

[hdmesa]

4 minutes ago, lct said:

This is not my reading but English is not my first language and my reading has perhaps not the least connection with the fact that i have no freeze issues fortunately for me.

I don't think it's your English that's the problem, it's Leica's less-than-clear translation from German or from thinking as in German.

But as I mentioned, I have tried all permutations of the Lens Correction menu and still experience freezes with the 35 1.5. So even if they are saying we shouldn't use uncoded lenses as "Uncoded", I've tried it your way, and I still have freezes.

[lct]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I've tried it your way, and I still have freezes.

You mean when the camera shows "1.4/35" instead of "Uncoded" actually?  If so, i have no problem this way with my uncoded Summilux 35/1.4 v2 so i can do little to help sorry.

[hdmesa]

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11 minutes ago, lct said:

You mean when the camera shows "1.4/35" instead of "Uncoded" actually?  If so, i have no problem this way with my uncoded Summilux 35/1.4 v2 so i can do little to help sorry.

Yes, if I manually select the closest Leica 35 1.4 lens from the list, it will still freeze, or at least it did with my previous two copies of the M11. Caveat: I have yet to test this with my current M11 under firmware 1.6.1.

@Qlan, have you tried using a manual profile with uncoded lenses under 1.6.1 specifically? I think you said that you had tried this to no avail.

Edited April 3, 2023 by hdmesa

[lct]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

Caveat: I have yet to test this with my current M11 under firmware 1.6.1.

I was discussing about 1.6.1 only.

[Qlan]

Just now, hdmesa said:

Yes, if I manually select the closest Leica 35 1.4 lens from the list, it will still freeze, or at least it did with my previous two copies of the M11. Caveat: I have yet to test this with my current M11 under firmware 1.6.1.

@Qlan, have you tried using a manual profile with uncoded lenses under 1.6.1 specifically? I think you said that was the case.

I am not entirely sure. I think when 1.6.1 was released, I’ve already hand coded my lenses but still got freezes at startup. Maybe my coding wasn’t done well enough and it confused the sensor/software some times. 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I was discussing about 1.6.1 only.

Did it only start working for you after 1.6.1, or did you find success prior to that? I will try it. I don't like using profiles with uncoded lenses, but if it worked, at least I could be using the lens until another firmware fix is released.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Qlan said:

I am not entirely sure. I think when 1.6.1 was released, I’ve already hand coded my lenses but still got freezes at startup. Maybe my coding wasn’t done well enough and it confused the sensor/software some times. 

Thanks. I'll report back if selecting a manual profile works under 1.6.1 to stop my freezes. 

[hdmesa]

@Qlan, if you would over the next few days – when you power off your M11, would you try listening for the click of the shutter closing? There is the click from the power switch followed by the click from the shutter closing. I may have noticed that the shutter is not closing on the power-off just before the freeze at the next power-on. If this is what's happening, then for some reason a 6-bit coded lens can still handle rebooting the camera and simply accept that the shutter is already open. The problem may come when lenses are set to uncoded, causing a freeze because the camera is trying to open the shutter and can't.

[Qlan]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

@Qlan, if you would over the next few days – when you power off your M11, would you try listening for the click of the shutter closing? There is the click from the power switch followed by the click from the shutter closing. I may have noticed that the shutter is not closing on the power-off just before the freeze at the next power-on. If this is what's happening, then for some reason a 6-bit coded lens can still handle rebooting the camera and simply accept that the shutter is already open. The problem may come when lenses are set to uncoded, causing a freeze because the camera is trying to open the shutter and can't.

Interesting theory, but I think I would have noticed if the shutter is open since most of my freezes happened after changing the lens. I would have noticed at least one time that the shutter remained open but I don’t remember any instance of that. 

[hdmesa]

Just now, Qlan said:

Interesting theory, but I think I would have noticed if the shutter is open since most of my freezes happened after changing the lens. I would have noticed at least one time that the shutter remained open but I don’t remember any instance of that. 

I can't really put my finger on it, but there's just something different about the sound of the clicks at power-off right before a freeze. Maybe it's closing but not fully engaging or locking into the closed position.

[lct]

6 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Did it only start working for you after 1.6.1, or did you find success prior to that? I will try it. I don't like using profiles with uncoded lenses, but if it worked, at least I could be using the lens until another firmware fix is released.

I got freezes with UHS2 cards before FW 1.6.1 but none since then. I cannot say if such freezes were related to uncoded lenses though. 

[ianforber]

On 4/1/2023 at 2:40 PM, hdmesa said:

Have you ever let it stay on Auto + Uncoded for a few days?

Yes. It’s been that way ever since I got the lens a couple of months ago. I’ve also changed profiles several times, all of which are Auto + Uncoded but with different Auto ISO settings etc. 
 

What I haven’t done is change the lens and use a coded lens and then change back - I’ve been getting used to the lens so my 50mm Summicron has sat in my bag for a couple of months. That might be key so I’ll swap them round a few times and see how that goes. 

[hdmesa]

@lct and @Qlan, it's been a little over 24 hours and no freezes with my CV 35 1.5 when manually selecting an M lens profile in the Lens Detection menu. I've not shot many photos, but I've put the camera through quite a few power-on and power-off cycles with many dismounts/re-mounts of the lens. Next up will be attaching a coded lens then changing back to the 35 1.5, then doing more power-on/power-off cycles.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I've called up a lens ID for an uncoded profile before.  That's what showed when I mounted a 50/2 collapsible LTM Summicron, but I corrected it.  So  can't help until the next firmware update or when I choose to reset everything to factory defaults (which is unlikely).

(afterthought -- Oh, I guess I could reset to "none.")

Edited April 4, 2023 by scott kirkpatrick

[hdmesa]

18 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I've called up a lens ID for an uncoded profile before.  That's what showed when I mounted a 50/2 collapsible LTM Summicron, but I corrected it.  So  can't help until the next firmware update or when I choose to reset everything to factory defaults (which is unlikely).

(afterthought -- Oh, I guess I could reset to "none.")

I think it would require resetting the entire camera to have "Uncoded" show again. The closest thing is turning Lens Detection "Off", but that has to be done at every startup, so I think it defeats the point.

This leads me back to our conversation earlier, @lct, where we discussed what Leica meant in the manual by the user "must" use an M lens code with uncoded lenses. I think there is another interpretation, that being the first time you use an uncoded lens, you do need to select a profile. After that, you can choose to turn Lens Detection "Off", but it will have to be turned off every time the camera is turned back on since it will default to the last used manually-selected M lens profile (or if using a coded lens, it will switch to the coded profile).

This means after the first time an M lens code is manually chosen in the Lens Detection menu, the option to have the lens show as "Uncoded" never again appears.

...which leads me to believe that "Uncoded" as shown in the quick menu is never a state Leica expected the camera to be operated in...

...as well as "Uncoded" never being a condition the camera was tested in before release. Should it have been? I don't think so, but I do think Leica should be putting Uncoded in reversed red in the quick menu to show what I think is essentially an error state of the camera and lens detection module. This is also likely why most everyone else besides myself and @Qlan are not having freezes with uncoded lenses at startup – at one point they manually selected an M lens profile for their uncoded lens and never saw "Uncoded" displayed in the quick menu again.

 

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[lct]

I would think of a user error selecting lens detection auto for an uncoded lens the camera has no way of detecting the ID. In such a case, the status of the lens seems logically "Uncoded" due to the non-application of Leica instructions ("The lens type must be entered manually when using a Leica M lens without 6-bit encoding"). The only Leica fault, if any, is the freeze which should never happen anyway. Now it never happened to me under firmware 1.6.1, so such a "fault" sounds hypothetical for now in this respect.