M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[Qlan]

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You’re the guy who doesn’t understand technical details and only think what you see is what is there. But a lot of stuff happens that you cannot see. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. And when we try to explain it to you, you just can’t seem to understand. Although it’s pure logic and lawyers should be good with logical reasoning in theory.

Anyway, even though I know the profile is doing destructive changes to the raw file, I’m still ok with it. Will code the lens tomorrow (the black paint pen is arriving then), pretty excited. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Qlan

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[hdmesa]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

Haha sorry but i'm the guy with no problem here .

I wish I had no problems!!!

I can use the SL2-S as an illustration as to how using a manual M profile can have two effects to a DNG that are separate from one another. This will be based on vignette correction. Unlike the M cameras, the SL2-S bakes vignette correction into the DNG and does not include that data in the DNG instructions available to C1/LR.

With the SL2-S, I take two shots with a lens that vignettes heavily that Leica is known to correct for – let's say the 28 Lux shot at f/1.4. I take one shot with the 28 Lux profile applied in camera and another shot with Lens Detection off. I open the two DNG files in Capture One and turn off the manufacturer profile on both of them. The DNG taken without an in-camera profile remains the same of course. But the DNG taken with the 28 Lux profile has less vignetting and it doesn't change when turning off the profile – again, the vignetting does not come back by turning off the manufacturer profile – it's removed permanently and forever in the DNG! The vignetting correction was hard-baked into the DNG and not part of the profile.

M cameras do not record vignette correction that way, nor do they bake it into the DNG. But they do bake the edge color shift correction into the DNG.

Edited February 14, 2023 by hdmesa

[hmzimelka]

11 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I wish I had no problems!!!

I can use the SL2-S as an illustration as to how using a manual M profile can have two effects to a DNG that are separate from one another. This will be based on vignette correction. Unlike the M cameras, the SL2-S bakes vignette correction into the DNG and does not include that data in the DNG instructions available to C1/LR.

With the SL2-S, I take two shots with a lens that vignettes heavily that Leica is known to correct for – let's say the 28 Lux shot at f/1.4. I take one shot with the 28 Lux profile applied in camera and another shot with Lens Detection off. I open the two DNG files in Capture One and turn off the manufacturer profile on both of them. The DNG taken without an in-camera profile remains the same of course. But the DNG taken with the 28 Lux profile has less vignetting and it doesn't change when turning off the profile – again, the vignetting does not come back by turning off the manufacturer profile – it's removed permanently and forever in the DNG! The vignetting correction was hard-baked into the DNG and not part of the profile.

M cameras do not record vignette correction that way, nor do they bake it into the DNG. But they do bake the edge color shift correction into the DNG.

M cameras do bake in vignetting and colour shading into the DNG. Not reversible. They don't bake in lens distortion correction.

The degree of vignetting correction may differ between M and SL though.

Edited February 14, 2023 by hmzimelka

[J S H]

28 minutes ago, Qlan said:

No, that's a different thing. Why can't you listen to all those people are saying? I'm again getting frustrated with you.

I'm not sure, but I think LCT might be saying that even if color drift correction is baked in to the RAW, he can still manually adjust the image in post to neutralize the unwanted color cast corrections, if it is truly objectionable? It's usually a fairly mild correction, so hard to see in most images. However, there are probably a few lens profiles with significant corrections that MIGHT show up more easily. As HDM mentioned, it would be nice to know just exactly what corrections are being made with each manual M profile.

I expect that if you set up a controlled, evenly lit test with a well corrected uncoded lens (such as one of the VM APO lenses, or maybe just use a longer focal length lens stopped down), and then stepped through all the manual M lens profiles under 50mm, you could review the images to discover the more egregious ones and know to avoid those. It really shouldn't be this hard. It's not black magic...Leica should document all of this in an easily accessible fashion, so that everyone could know which profiles work best for any given need and which to avoid. 

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

M cameras do bake in vignetting and colour shading into the DNG. Not reversible. They don't bake in lens distortion correction.

The degree of vignetting correction may differ between M and SL though.

Thank you, I was confusing vignette correction with distortion correction.

[hdmesa]

Just now, J S H said:

I'm not sure, but I think LCT might be saying that even if color drift correction is baked in to the RAW, he can still manually adjust the image in post to neutralize the unwanted color cast corrections, if it is truly objectionable?...

No, LCT was saying they can turn it off and was quite sure about it  It's extremely difficult to correct for edge color cast, so it would be equally difficult to reverse it in C1/LR.

[hdmesa]

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5 minutes ago, J S H said:

I'm not sure, but I think LCT might be saying that even if color drift correction is baked in to the RAW, he can still manually adjust the image in post to neutralize the unwanted color cast corrections, if it is truly objectionable? It's usually a fairly mild correction, so hard to see in most images. However, there are probably a few lens profiles with significant corrections that MIGHT show up more easily. As HDM mentioned, it would be nice to know just exactly what corrections are being made with each manual M profile.

I expect that if you set up a controlled, evenly lit test with a well corrected uncoded lens (such as one of the VM APO lenses, or maybe just use a longer focal length lens stopped down), and then stepped through all the manual M lens profiles under 50mm, you could review the images to discover the more egregious ones and know to avoid those. It really shouldn't be this hard. It's not black magic...Leica should document all of this in an easily accessible fashion, so that everyone could know which profiles work best for any given need and which to avoid. 

Generally Leica and CV lenses of the same focal length, f-stop, and age/design may have similar correction needs. It's quite common to apply an M profile to a CV lens in order to correct for similar issues.

But in general, I avoid M profiles even with M lenses because I want to retain the native optical rendering and character. I can remove distortion and vignetting in C1 if I want to. I only want to use an in-camera profile if I'm using a lens that needs a lot of edge color shift correction, which is not easily done in C1/LR.

[J S H]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

No, LCT was saying they can turn it off and was quite sure about it  It's extremely difficult to correct for edge color cast, so it would be equally difficult to reverse it in C1/LR.

Got it. I couldn't tell for sure. It's just such a drag that there are some cameras out there that are locking up all the time. I've only had mine for about 3 weeks, but I have put it through its paces and have only had two freezes. Mine seem directly related to LV. Both times, it has frozen when turning on the camera with LV already activated. I am using only uncoded lenses and I have not had a freeze in over a week since I started making a point to disable LV before shutting off the camera. You may already be doing this, but if not, it's worth a shot. 

[J S H]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Generally Leica and CV lenses of the same focal length, f-stop, and age/design may have similar correction needs. It's quite common to apply an M profile to a CV lens in order to correct for similar issues.

But in general, I avoid M profiles even with M lenses because I want to retain the native optical rendering and character. I can remove distortion and vignetting in C1 if I want to. I only want to use an in-camera profile if I'm using a lens that needs a lot of edge color shift correction, which is not easily done in C1/LR.

You make a good point. I may stop using the profiles as well, just to keep things simple. It's easy enough to correct everything in Lr with LensTagger and then apply the proper profile if desired.  Plus, I regularly forget to activate the proper profile in the camera when I switch lenses, so in most cases, it's counter-productive on multiple levels. 

[Tailwagger]

26 minutes ago, J S H said:

Both times, it has frozen when turning on the camera with LV already activated. I am using only uncoded lenses and I have not had a freeze in over a week since I started making a point to disable LV before shutting off the camera.

Might work for some, but this isn't my experience and  I shoot with LV on permanently (with the viso).  I have experienced a few freezes, but never on startup.  Most typical time is when in the heat of battle I forget to turn the camera off before a lens change. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

No, LCT was saying they can turn it off and was quite sure about it  It's extremely difficult to correct for edge color cast, so it would be equally difficult to reverse it in C1/LR.

You're putting words i don't understand in my mouth guys but i don't mind it at all, reminds me of my youth when i was confronted with a bunch of experts as a barrister. Don't panic, i'll try to keep it simple for you . Just kidding. Look, i have a hand-coded lens, namely a superb Biogon 21/4.5 renowned to produce ugly color shifts on some pre-historical cameras like my M240. The lens is hand-coded as an Elmarit 21/2.8 pre-asph because it was the way i used to code it when i had not my M11 yet. Now that i have the M11, i don't need the color corrections of the camera anymore, due to its BSI sensor i suspect, déjà vu on my Sony A7r2 mod. Anyway, i convert the raw file with Iridient Developer which prompts me to keep the "DMG Camera Profile" embedded in the raw file or to choose another profile like "DNG Matrix Color". I choose the latter that i find less saturated and i develop the file this way. Job done. I have used a Zeiss lens on a Leica camera w/o the least problem and my auto iso settings can work properly based on the focal length of the lens. End of story, you can shoot at me now .

Edited February 14, 2023 by lct

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I can't seem to get this point, sorry again. Either i keep the Leica color profile as is or i remove it in PP. On WA lenses, i can remove it eventually, if i find it too saturated for instance, but i may keep the vignette correction or adjust it at will if needed. Am i  missing something?

Large format lenses had a center filter, it is a gradient filter from the center to correct specific lenses.
The process is the same, the correction is not applied uniformly on the picture, but more intense on the other edge where the lens signature is more pronounce .

Here is the same photo of summilux 28mm with profile on and off. the 2nd image has the same warm tone across the image (profile on)

 

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[Photoworks]

I think we can go back to freezing issues!

I had a freeze today while turning on the camera.

Turned on with SD card, red light was on, and stared on. no menu would come up. black screen.

Took out card, turned on again , same problem. Red light didn't turn off. camera did not work.

This is the first freeze I had of this kind on 1.6. 2nd in total on v1.6.

Took out battery and used another battery. Everything was fine.
Charge battery one and tried again and everything was fine.

I think the camera tries to start but battery power was too low to fully start boot process.

I don't know what level battery one was, the charger does not indicate %%

[Qlan]

3 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I think we can go back to freezing issues!

I had a freeze today while turning on the camera.

Turned on with SD card, red light was on, and stared on. no menu would come up. black screen.

Took out card, turned on again , same problem. Red light didn't turn off. camera did not work.

This is the first freeze I had of this kind on 1.6. 2nd in total on v1.6.

Took out battery and used another battery. Everything was fine.
Charge battery one and tried again and everything was fine.

I think the camera tries to start but battery power was too low to fully start boot process.

I don't know what level battery one was, the charger does not indicate %%

Yeah the battery is indeed another factor for freezes. We saw occurrences on this forum where some users will stop getting freezes after buying a new battery. In those cases, low battery was not the root cause, but maybe the controller on the battery or the controller on the camera which is a bit too sensible to imperfection.

[SrMi]

I had my first battery related freeze a couple of days ago. I tried turning the camera on, but nothing happened. It turns out that I forgot to insert the battery into the camera. Would not have happened with a removable bottom!!!

True story 😁!

[jaapv]

14 hours ago, hdmesa said:

No, LCT was saying they can turn it off and was quite sure about it  It's extremely difficult to correct for edge color cast, so it would be equally difficult to reverse it in C1/LR.

It is not difficult at all. C1 has built in Flat Field Correction which once set up makes it a one-click operation and there is an automatic Flat Field plugin for Lightroom. 

[jaapv]

May I remind members that personal squabbling is not allowed on this forum. Posts deleted. 

[SJH]

Can I just add in here that most people will format their SD cards for use in their M11's but many it would appear haven't formatted the internal memory. Just an idea from another discussion I had on another forum.

I received my M11 very soon after launch and haven't had any freezes (in fact I've had about 3 on my M10R BP I think since owning it but just battery pulls) but I do make sure that I format both the SD card and internal memory each time I've transferred and edited my shots in Lightroom. Equally I try to recharge the battery to prevent only having 10% or less when I try to use the camera. 

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[lct]

59 minutes ago, SJH said:

I do make sure that I format both the SD card and internal memory each time I've transferred and edited my shots [...]. Equally I try to recharge the battery to prevent only having 10% or less when I try to use the camera. 

+1. Simple tips i use too. Works fine for me together with setting up or updating user profiles under firmware 1.6.

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is not difficult at all. C1 has built in Flat Field Correction which once set up makes it a one-click operation and there is an automatic Flat Field plugin for Lightroom. 

You greatly underestimate my laziness!